Transcript 0:00 I, I didn't start Perimeter just to make a lot of money. If I did, if I was trying to make a lot of money, I would not start a gov tech company when I was 22. Like, that's not, that is not what I would've done. 0:11 I would've started a lifestyle company or something where being a 22-year-old blonde, like, might be an advantage. [whooshing noise] [ding] See how you look as well. Where's this from, the thing you're wearing? Oh, this? 0:22 It's from- Like, the long vest... it's from Japan. Ah, I hate that answer. [laughs] The only thing worse than that is, like, "Oh, I got it at a thrift store-" [laughs] "... in Japan." I know. 0:32 It's like, there's, it's completely untraceable at that point. No, no. This is actually from Zara Japan. Oh, okay. So, like, it's actually reasonable. Okay. You could probably get it. Zara Japan. [laughs] Okay, great. 0:40 But, like, I don't know, they definitely don't put all the pieces- You got it in Japan? Dude, in Japan, everyone wears this. Really? Like, I look so basic there- [laughs]... if I wear this outfit. 0:49 [laughs] But here, it's, like, actually unique because everyone just wears sweatpants. [laughs] Yeah, I know. When I- And... [laughs] When I went to Berkeley, I was not expecting to go to Berkeley. Like, that was not... 1:01 I, I wanted to go to the East Coast. Mm-hmm. And when I realized I was gonna be going to Berkeley, I was like, "No." Like, it's just nothing but- Yeah... like, it's just sweats. Yeah. Like, I'm never gonna fit in. 1:10 [laughs] This is gonna be, this is gonna be terrible. But- Dude, don't even get me started on the weather. Like, also, put your headphones on. We're, we're already starting now. We're already starting now. [laughs] Yeah. 1:19 Um, no, dude. Like, you literally, yesterday was like a... So I'm, uh, currently airbnbing in SF 'cause I'm testing it out to see if I wanna live here. Mm-hmm. 1:28 I have, like, my family and my friends and my boyfriend and everyone is here, so it, like, does make sense for me here, but I'm so... Like, get me out of SF. I don't wanna be here. 1:35 I w- And also, with the nature of my work, I travel a lot, so I'm like, "D- is it even worth it for me to pay rent in a city I don't even like?" So I'm, like, testing it out. 1:42 I'm, like, airbnbing right now to see if I wanna do it, and my first day was a heat wave. I'm wearing a T-shirt and I'm sweating on my walk. I'm like, "This is perfect. I wanna sweat all the time." 1:50 [laughs] Like, I love the heat. And then I was like, "Oh," like, "maybe this week is gonna be misleading because it's, like, a good week." And then today it's, like, wind tunnel, like, I'm walking through a rain cloud. 2:00 Like, I can't even, like, walk forward because my entire body is being soaked. And I was like, "Well, immediately got my answer." [laughs] Like, I don't wanna live through this. 2:08 Yeah, and just to be clear, that is what San Francisco is like- Yeah... all the time... in a nutshell. The heat wave, that was special. If you wanna have heat wave- Completely rare event. Like [laughs]... 2:16 cross the bridge to Berkeley. It's so funny, I was at a founder's event last week, and someone was asking, like, "Why would you not live in San Francisco?" Like, you know, "Why? I guess the rent is cheaper out here." 2:26 I'm like, "First of all, not that much cheaper. Second-" Barely... "you couldn't, you could not pay me to live in San Francisco. Absolutely not. There's no way." Like, I... 2:37 And even just driving here today, in Berkeley the weather was 75 degrees and sunny. It was beautiful. It was perfect. Really? Ugh. It's, it's July. And then, you know, near the Bay Bridge, it was still pretty sunny. 2:47 You know, my phone is crashing, like, heat warning, get me off the windshield. And then I get out here, and it's like, woo, wind tunnel. And it's [laughs] what the heck? You have that small little jacket. 2:59 [laughs] I know. [laughs] This was way too much when I left Berkeley. It's like, "Oh, I'm not gonna need this." And then I get out to the Marina- Yeah... it's like, okay. No, no, the ultimate out. 3:06 I, like, finally, after 26 years of coming to SF at least five times a year, you know, 'cause growing up nearby you do that, I'm like, "Oh, I have to wear a puffer jacket no matter what the weather report says." 3:20 [laughs] At any time of day, any means necessary, you must have a puffer jacket. Like, it took me 26 years to realize that. 'Cause you're like, "Oh, it's so sunny where I am in South Bay. 3:29 Like, why do I need to, like, bring a puffer?" You're like, immediately switches the second you get on the bridge. Like- Yeah. I learned that with being on Berkeley's campus, even just for a few hours at a time. 3:39 It's like, if you have a morning class, and you have an, even an early afternoon class, if you aren't wearing three different outfits, at some point you are going to be absolutely miserable. Like, you- Wow... 3:50 it's gonna be 45 degrees in the morning. Like, you are gonna be so buttoned up and you're like, "Oh, this sweater? Like, yeah, of course I can wear this as my base layer all day." No. 3:57 By 2:00, it's, not only it's gonna be hot, but nothing is air-conditioned, except for the business school. We don't like them. [laughs] Um, because we're jealous. But nothing's air-conditioned. Uh-uh. 4:09 And so at 2:00 PM you're just, like, trying not to crease your arms, like, just sitting in class. Ugh. Like, just like, please, nothing. Like, just don't move. It's gonna be okay. 4:17 Just gotta get through this hour and a half. Wow. That's every single day, but it took me, like, two years to actually learn always three different, like, three layers of clothing. 4:26 Yeah, I mean, it's funny because, like, I think of Berkeley, and I think of the fact that it is the same weather as SF, which is not true. It's clearly different. It's like, you gotta layer. Yeah. 4:37 I think in SF, you don't really layer. You just, like, always have to be in a puffer basically. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Um, okay, well, let's get into the episode. Okay, yeah. 4:44 Uh, first of all, I just wanna say, like, genius idea about collabing on this episode is, like, you have a podcast, I have a podcast. What is the point of filming twice? 4:53 We should just, like, smash our episodes and, like, do it together. [laughs] Like, honestly. So I'm, like, so excited about this. I've never done something like this before. 5:01 Usually I'm, like, featuring someone who's, like, insanely cool, and I'm, like, slightly intimidated. Yeah, and today you're not intimidated. No, no. Like, it's not cool at all. This is gonna make me look good. 5:10 [laughs] No, because, like, I feel, like, connected to you 'cause we've talked before, and we've, like, talked about what it's like to be a female founder and what it's like to, like, build our brand and our audience, like, online, social media. 5:21 I feel like we've, like, chatted off the podcast. 5:24 And usually I will talk to people the, for the first time on the podcast, because I want it to be authentic, and I want to, like, have that genuine curiosity and learn about them in real time with the audience. 5:36 And I feel like this is why this episode's special to me, because I feel like we can dive much deeper into, like, just the, like, I need to ask basic questions. 5:44 Usually, when I, like, leave that episode with a guest, I feel connected to them, and I don't... 5:49 I'm leaving feeling not intimidated 'cause I, like, understand they're a real person, and they've just, like, worked really hard to get where they are, and they've gone through that journey, just like all of us have. 5:57 But it takes the whole episode for me to get there, right? 'Cause I'm, like, getting to know them. But-Anyways, I just wanna like dive into you. 6:04 So like just tell me like what was the first moment when you were like, "I'm gonna go start and build this company"? Yeah, so it definitely was a gradual realization for me. 6:13 So everything started with me at Perimeter because of this fire in my hometown, Santa Rosa. Um, it was called the Tubbs Fire. It happened in 2017. 6:22 And I had to go evacuate my mom because she'd just had major surgery, and so she wasn't able to get out. I was going to school at Berkeley. I was working in, in the South, South Bay, Sunnyvale, South Silicon Valley. 6:36 And so I was really about an hour or two away from my mom at any point. 6:39 And so I was able to get to her pretty quickly to help get her out, but once I got there, there was no information about which direction to go, where, where the fire actually was, which roads we should take. 6:52 And it might seem like during an incident it's obvious where the fire's happening, right? It's this big, glowing orange thing. Not the case. 7:00 So during a fire like Tubbs, there's, there are multiple fires burning simultaneously. So in Tubbs, I think it was like 12 at the same time. 7:08 So it's not obvious which way is safe and which way is like literally taking you straight towards the fire- Wow... until you're really close, right? Mm-hmm. And so you kind of have a coin flip. 7:18 You're like, "Do I go left or right out of my driveway?" Like, you know, I actually don't know. Do I get on the interstate? Like, do I take the back roads that I usually take? And 7:28 all of that was happening while I'm going to school at, you know, this, this university that really is the biggest feeder of talent to Silicon Valley. So we're like swimming in high tech. 7:41 And I'm used to, you know, being able to order a burrito and track it every square, you know, every, every square meter like on its way to my house, I can track my burrito. 7:52 But I'm in this natural disaster, and there's absolutely no technology that can help me. And so- That's insane... I was just shocked. Yeah. 8:01 And I thought that tech had really permeated, like high tech and i- you know, great UI, you know, easy to use tech, I figured that had permeated, permeated every industry. 8:13 But it was so clear in the moment where I really needed technology most, I needed real-time information most to save my life and the life of my family in that moment, and I didn't have anything. 8:24 I didn't have any way to do that. It was just guessing. And I went back to Berkeley after that fire and needed answers. I just wanted to know how it was possible that that happened, that I had that experience. 8:38 And I, I started, you know, doing a pretty deep dive on, in the res- like in the research space trying to understand like, you know, what technology exists in the ecosystem for first responders. 8:49 And in order to get some of those answers, yeah, I, I talked to folks at Berkeley, but I also went back to my community and started talking to my dad's fire department, because my parents are both first responders. 9:01 And at the time of the fire, I figured that first responders had all the information they needed to make decisions. They just couldn't get it to people like me, residents. 9:11 And I found out from interviewing the firefighters that wasn't true. They didn't have that information either. They were limited to using paper maps and radios. That's so wild- On the land phone... you're like trying... 9:20 You're, you're literally battling minutes and lives, and you're literally relying on technology from like centuries ago. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And again, it was still a gradual process. 9:30 It wasn't like I discovered the problem and was like, "I need to build something." It was like, I discovered the problem and I thought, "Somebody qualified needs to build something." 9:40 And I started going to GIS mapping conferences and talking to these big billion-dollar mapping companies and saying, "Hey, we have this fire issue. I think it's gonna happen again, um, in my community. 9:53 But it's not just fires, it's other disasters too, and we need real-time map-based information for the first responders in the communities who are being affected by these fires." 10:03 And I remember at one of these conferences a GIS mapping person said to me like, "Why don't you just tell your dad to take a GIS class?" 10:11 'Cause GIS mapping tools require a lot of training, and, um, oftentimes people get degrees in GIS in order to use these mapping systems. 10:20 My dad, who's a fire captain in Petaluma, was never, was never going to, was never going to take one of these classes. 10:29 And so I would say that was the moment where I realized, "Oh, maybe I have to do something about this." And then a couple months later, I was going to school while the Camp Fire hit, and the AQI was terrible. 10:43 Everyone on campus was affected, and my family was both evacuated and friends of mine who are first responders responded that incident, and I realized, "Oh, this can't just be something I'm researching while I'm in school. 10:57 I have to give everything I have to building a solution now, even if I'm not qualified, even if I don't know how to do this." It's no longer a... It, it no longer felt like an option. It felt like a necessity. Right. 11:10 Like, literally, if you don't do it, there will be lives lost. Exactly. There is that urgency. Exactly. That is so powerful. 11:17 I think oftentimes us founders, especially those aspiring founders, like we wanna try to find problems to solve because we want to embark on a journey of building something from zero to one. 11:27 So like much less often is someone being like, "Oh," like, "this is literally an urgent problem that needs to be solved that literally save lives, and if I don't do it, nobody will. Like, I have to do it. 11:35 Like, even if I don't wanna do it, I have to do it." Like, that's wild, and that's so powerful. Yeah. And also, thank you for not, for standing up to that challenge and bringing that solution to people. 11:46 Like, that's not a casual, small thing to do, because you're now paving your entire career journey, and your entire identity is now your company, right? That that's like what it is f- to be a founder, right? Absolutely. 11:57 Absolutely. And yeah, thank you for saying that. I, as, at the time that I was deciding, it was like, yeah, I could go get a job. 12:05 Let's imagine like best case scenario, I, I could get a job at Google or something.I would, I knew that I would always look back and know that if I didn't give everything to trying to solve this problem, I would always wonder, like, what if I, what if I could have done something? 12:22 You know, like, what if my hometown burns down again? Which by the way, it has five times, including Tubbs, since then. Four more times since Tubbs we've been evacuated in Santa Rosa for major fires. Yeah, yeah. 12:35 Four times since starting this company. That's insane. 12:38 I don't live in Santa Rosa right now, but I have been there for every single evac- evacuation just by happenstance, including one time my family and I were camping on the Russian River and we got evacuated because there was a fire near where we were camping. 12:52 Like, I'm like, "How is this happening?" I'm like, "Okay. All right. I'm paying- You're like, "Enough signs from the universe." [laughs] Yeah, exactly. Like, I don't know- Like, go solve it now. [laughs]... 12:59 I don't know who's out there, but I'm listening, I'm paying attention. And- Wow... what you said is so true in terms of it becoming, like, your entire identity. You know? 13:08 Sometimes people say that having a company is like having a baby or... For me, it's like, no, it kinda becomes part of you. Mm. You know? Mm-hmm. 'Cause you're kind of living, breathing it all the time. 13:17 And for me, especially for the first couple years, honestly, I, I barely thought about anything else. Like, I was completely obsessed and absorbed with this problem. 13:29 And if you had told me years before when I was at a junior college getting an art degree that three years later I would be the CEO of a data-driven public safety company, [laughs] I don't know what I would've said. 13:45 It would've been completely- Yeah... absurd to me. Yeah. Wow. So is, is this basically the first thing you did after college, after you graduated? I- Was like- Yeah. 13:55 Or you s- you started building this company in college actually. I did, yeah. So I started this company my... The research started my junior year, but I started it my senior year. 14:05 And before we graduated, so like two weeks before g- I graduated, um, we'd gotten into Alchemist Accelerator. 14:13 And so we graduated, me, my team, my co-founder dropped out, and we got started at Alchemist, like, right after graduation. 14:21 So have you had internships or was this, like, your first job experience literally just like, "I'm a founder now"? So I've always worked. Mm-hmm. 14:28 And I got my first legal job when I turned 16, but, um, when I was 11 I, I ran a baking company out of my house. Wow. I was homeschooled my whole life. My God, entrepreneur from day one. 14:41 [laughs] Well, I was homeschooled and I had so much time on my hands, and my parents were pretty laissez-faire about what I did with my time as long as I was, you know, enjoying it. 14:52 And so I, my neighbor, uh, best friend and I started selling cookies. 14:57 And I think that actually has played a huge role in my, um, in the tools that I have as a founder because I learned that, yeah, I can go door to door and the worst-case scenario is that somebody's gonna say no, but if you go to, if you knock on enough doors, like, eventually you'll find someone who wants to buy cookies or whatever you're selling. 15:17 Mm-hmm. So I, I did that, um, when I was a kid, and then I started working in hospitality when I was 16. I worked there up until, um, af- uh, throughout my first year at Berkeley. Mm-hmm. 15:29 My second year at Berkeley I started working, um, almost full time at this, um, machine learning company in Sunnyvale. And so I was commuting three days a week from Berkeley to Sunnyvale at 4:00 in the morning. 15:42 And you were doing school at this point. And I was doing school. This, I would not like to ever recreate this part of my life. [laughs] Honestly, I don't think I could do it. 15:49 Like, right now- But do, like, do you regret it? No, absolutely not. Yeah. But there's also some kind of, like, magical energy of being 20 years old that- Yeah... I don't know if I could recreate. [laughs] Yeah. 15:59 You're like, "I'm superhuman, I'm gonna do everything." [laughs] Like, not to limit myself- Yeah... but the amount of energy and the, um, the lack of sleep that I was able to get while still performing- That's true... 16:09 like, oh my gosh. It's like physically your body is also more capable then. Like, if I don't get eight hours of sleep now I'm like, next day is a wash. 100%. Yeah. 100%. 16:18 And I actually talked to my doctor about this recently. Yeah. I was like, "Hey, so this is kinda weird, but, like, I have to get eight hours of sleep now." [laughs] And I'm like, "Is there something wrong with me?" 16:28 [laughs] And she's like- She's like, "Wild. You gotta fully sleep at night." [laughs] And she's like- Crazy... 'cause I'm like, "I used to be able to get four hours- Mm-hmm... no problem. Like, I was able to do that." 16:38 And, and she said, she's like, "Bailey, I don't think you should be- [laughs]... beating yourself up for needing the recommended amount of sleep every night." 16:46 [laughs] And I was like, "Okay, when you say it like that, this did sound like a ridiculous question." [laughs] You're like, "I'm, I'm, okay, sold." [laughs] Wow. 16:53 But also I'm a lot healthier now than I was when I started. 16:56 Like, I kinda gave up all the things that I loved and I was all in on Perimeter, and now I feel like I actually spend a lot less time working and I have more time dedicated to other parts of my life and my health, but I feel like I have 10 times the results that I had when I was a 22-year-old founder. 17:14 No, I've been thinking a lot about this too. I'm like, I feel like I was doing 20 things when I was younger. Right now if I even do more than two things I kind of do them poorly- Mm-hmm... 17:24 and then I get tired and I fall asleep. 17:25 [laughs] So a lot of my, like, struggle of being a founder in day to day has been like, what is the one thing I'm gonna focus on today and do that incredibly well, and, like, actually end the day with an output. 17:35 But I feel like when we were younger, for some reason we were, like, way more open-minded about dabbling- Mm-hmm... 17:40 into, like, a million things, and then, like, moving things forward in those and, like, having more clarity on, like, what we're doing and, like, building those skills. Yeah, absolutely. 17:48 And, you know, if someone was listening to this and hearing us talk about, "Oh, back when we were younger," they might be like, "Get out of here." Like, I don't know how old you are, but I'm 26, so I know- Oh, me too. 17:57 Okay, great. Yeah. Um, so a lot of people could look back and be like, "Oh yeah, like, okay, back when you were younger, back when you were 22, like, that was so long ago." 18:05 I don't know if it's necessarily correlated with age so much as also where you are in that journey, because I feel like- Yeah... 18:12 there's a certain kind of adrenaline that kicks in in the, like, early honeymoon phase of your business, you know? And I don't think it matters what age you are- Yeah... when you actually start. 18:21 I mean, it's basically a relationship. Like, I- Oh, 100%. You, you, your relationship with your business m-Totally mirrors a relationship with, like, a person. Yeah. 18:30 And then there, there's basically, like, two things, right? There's, like, breakup or marriage. Uh-huh. That's like r- a reality. 18:35 Like, some people try for a few years, and then they fail, and other people go take their company somewhere, right? And it's, it's a very emotional process. Yeah, absolutely. And even if you're... 18:47 Even if it's a marriage and it's working out, like, there's still so much that you have to learn, and it's a daily... I don't wanna call it a daily battle because I hope that, like, marriage isn't a battle. Yeah. 18:57 But it is... It does require daily amounts of intention and recommitment. Right. Right? Every time you're in a relationship, like, you com- Daily intention is good. Absolutely. 19:06 You're committing to it every day, and if you're not committing to it, then you're kind of... You start going through the motions a little bit. Mm-hmm. And that lack of intentionality- Mm-hmm... 19:18 of going through the motions, I think, is when... That's when you... That's when your business ends in a way that's, like, really devastating because it's not that it comes to, like, an abrupt end. 19:27 It's that you burn out, and slowly, over time, you kind of wither away. 19:32 And then later in your life, you look back and you're like, "Gosh, like, if only I had prioritized my health, I would've been able to, you know, continue running this marathon." Mm-hmm. 19:41 "But like, instead, I kind of slowly, over time, you know, started to, started to wither." Yeah. And I think it's so important to- Yeah... have that intentionality to stay healthy for the marathon. Yeah. 19:52 I mean, they say, right? It's like if you... 19:54 Unless you put yourself first, whether it's, you know, in a relationship or when you're building a company, you can't actually be present for that other part of your life and show up there, right? Yeah. 20:04 So I mean, whe- when was that moment when you realized it was, like, really important to take care of your body and that was a priority? Yeah. So for me, I, I refer to this as the cosmic frying pan. Okay. 20:14 [laughs] I sometimes... I need to learn lessons the hard way. Like, I can slowly experience, like, the effects of adrenal fatigue, and it's not gonna take me out until something really intense happens. 20:27 And for me, that was ending up in the ER month after month after month. And I... Basically, I, I have this thing that happens to me. A lot of women do. It's called ovarian torsion, and it's like when your ovaries twist. 20:41 And it's... By the third time, like, three months in a row, I ended up getting... I ended up being in the ER, and I had these three doctors come in and say, "Hi. Are you under a lot of stress right now? 20:53 Because it's really weird that this has happened three times in a row given that it's never happened to you before." Meanwhile, it's 2020. I'm not paying myself. I'm getting fundraise- I'm trying to fundraise every day. 21:05 Mm-hmm. It's like a year in. I haven't been able to. It's just I spend all day every day getting rejected on Zoom. And when I finally was, like, in the hospital that last time, I realized, "Oh, 21:18 if I keep running my business this way and, like, taking on all this stress and not use... 21:25 and not creating any ways for me to, like, actually, like, release some of that stress and have a healthier, both physically, emotionally, mentally, spiritually... 21:35 If I don't have that healthy lifestyle, then I could actually kill myself here." 21:41 And with, like, ovarian torsion, if your ovaries twist and it cuts off blood flow, in some cases, you have, like, 12 minutes before you need emergency surgery to survive. 21:50 And so this really is, like, a life-threatening thing. This is so serious. It is. And when that happened to me, I was like, "Okay. If I wanna keep doing this, I have to do things very, very differently." 22:03 And my experience at Perimeter completely turned around after that in, in a r- in a really good way. And I'm actually so grateful that I had to be in the ER those times. Mm-hmm. 22:16 Because if I hadn't, I'd probably still be living that lifestyle- Mm-hmm... and would just be, you know, ready to burn out in the future. Mm-hmm. But now I have to do things very differently. Yeah. 22:27 So, so what were the changes you made, and how did that, like... How were you able to build a better company because of it? Yeah. So one of the big changes happened around fundraising. 22:35 So like I said, I'd been struggling to fundraise for almost a year, and I was taking like five pitch meetings on Zoom a day and just the answer was, "No, no, no, no, no." 22:45 We'd get, like, one check a month or something, like $10,000, to, like, you know, keep us going. And, you know, we barely had a month, at most two months, of runway at a time. 22:56 Only one of us at the company was getting paid, and he was getting paid, like, nothing, um, like $2,000 a month. 23:03 And, um, when I, when I left the ER that third time, I knew that things had to change, and I knew that one of the, the areas that I needed to change was fundraising 'cause it wasn't working. 23:15 And I believed in my business so much. I believed in this company. 23:18 I believed in the market, in the customer, in our business model, in our approach, and I knew what we were doing was possible despite what people were telling me. 23:27 And so I did some really deep soul searching around, like, why is this not working? The company's not gonna change. The pitch isn't going to change. The deck has gone back and forth through changes- Mm-hmm... 23:38 this whole time, so it's not... You know, there's nothing to do there. I need to change. Like, it's me. I'm the factor that needs to show up differently. 23:48 And at that time, I, I heard a friend of mine pitch, and her pitch sounded so different than my pitch. It was so compelling. 23:57 And I realized that I'd been going into all of these pitch meetings as if this investor was doing me a favor by listening to my pitch. Hmm. 24:05 And what hit me in, at, right in, in that time period was realizing, "Wait a second. They're trying to get rich off of me. They're not doing me a favor. I'm not pitching a nonprofit." Like, yes, my business is... 24:19 You know, if we do what we're working to do, then yes, it will save lives. It will, like, protect livelihoods. It will help people get information that can help them get to safety. But that doesn't mean it's a nonprofit. 24:31 Like, that doesn't mean that- Yeah... building it with a venture-backed structure- Yeah... 24:35 isn't the most effective way to get this technology out there to reach people.And I decided that I'm gonna go into these fundraising meetings and I'm going to, I'm not gonna take shit from anyone. 24:48 And if they aren't interested, like if they're kind of wishy-washy, then it's over. Like I'm not- Yeah, like their loss. Totally. 'Cause you're doing them a favor. Exactly. 24:58 And founders have lots of ways that we can build a company. Like we don't have to take, we do not have to take venture dollars. 25:05 We can, you know, in, in gov tech, like where I am, like we can find grants, we can do other programs, we could grow slowly off of revenue depending on the business. 25:15 You know, there are, there are other ways to finance a company. And so for me it's like, wait a second, I don't need them, they need me. 25:22 VCs need great founders in order to maintain their business model, and so if I'm a great founder, which I'm aspiring to be, then they want to get on board. 25:35 And so what I started doing tangibly is in the first five minutes I qualified the investor, I started with the three biggest red flags. 25:42 We are a pre-revenue company, we sell to government, and within government we sell specifically to public safety. Oh, and our team is a bunch of college students who have never done this before. Mm-hmm. 25:53 Are any of those problems for you? And if they were wishy-washy, if they're like, "Uh, well," call's over. Yeah. And say, "Thank you so much." And you don't have unlimited time. 26:03 Like that time that you're spending with that l- like investor, that's away from your business, that's away from making money off of your customers. Like- Totally... 26:10 it's not even being a smart business woman to not respect your time, because like it's literally driving revenue away from your company. 26:17 And so it makes so much sense that once you like reprioritized your strategy there, you're, you're being more respectful of your time, and then also you're demanding that respect. 26:26 Like their perception of you is really just your perception of self. Absolutely. And, you know, when you ask those questions at the beginning and then you protect your time, they recognize that you're not a pushover. 26:38 And to be a founder and to get through, like to walk through some of the brick walls we have to walk through in this process, including fundraising, like you can't be a pushover. Mm-hmm. 26:47 Like you have to be able to draw boundaries, and if you can't start off at the, in the first call and draw the necessary boundaries to protect your time and demonstrate that you are, that you value your ability to get work done with that other time that you save, then why would they trust you to be the right founder? 27:08 And so, and also if this is a 30-minute call and you don't spend that first five minutes qualifying so you take the other 25 to pitch, and then you get rejected, like that's also emotionally really challenging. Right. 27:21 You like invest all this time already. And so you invested all this time in someone who couldn't invest in you in the first place because they can only invest in companies who have generated $1 million in ARR, you know? 27:32 And so if you pitch the wrong investor. And investors, especially like the ones who reach out to you, you know, maybe analysts, et cetera, they want to learn. Like they, they're actually curious about your business. 27:43 And it might not be a waste of time for them to hear your pitch. Yeah. And- But it's a waste of time for you because you're not in the business of free labor, education. Exactly. [laughs] Free education basically. 27:52 Exactly. I remember one of my first calls that I used this strategy and an investor said... I was like, "Okay, well, you know, it doesn't sound like we're at the right place. 28:00 You know, you're the right, you're investor for us right now, so, um, I'd, I'd love to just, um, honor both of our time and, and end this call now." 28:07 And I remember him saying like, "No, I'm, I'm, I'm really interested in learning about the space and learning about the market, so I'd, I'd really love to hear your pitch." 28:14 And I had to say like, "I totally understand, but to your point, like I'm not in the business of educating right now. I'm in the business of fundraising. 28:23 And if you're not the right investor for me, then I have to protect my time and do my job." Dude, moment. [laughs] Like that is so insanely hard to say in the moment, because you really have to stand up for yourself. 28:37 Yeah. It's so uncomfortable. Yeah. And, yeah, I mean, I just, I have not heard many founders have the courage to say that on a call. 28:48 I can't even imagine, like 'cause I've fundraised too, and it was so challenging, and I fully experienced what you're saying where they already knew before even taking the call, like this was not a domain they could possibly invest in, just it wasn't part of their thesis, whatever, but then they just like wanna pick your brain. 29:02 [laughs] And it's, oh my God, the most irritating line is, "Oh, but just like can I... I just wanna pick your brain." Yeah. For that I was like, "Bro, like what?" 29:09 [laughs] It's like wait a second, I have a finite amount of cognitive resources every day. They are not going to be allocated to like, you know, being a thesaurus about my company for you. Yeah. 29:18 It's like Go- Goo- if you wanna learn about this space, like please, please Google us. Yeah. Like g- literally Google my company. The whole reason why you have a website, literally. Yeah, exactly. 29:26 [laughs] It's like, and in fact, in the early days, like your website might be targeted at investors, you know, depending on- Yeah... your business model. And so it's like, yeah, great, go read the pitch online. 29:35 You know, if you have- Mm-hmm... if you are, if there is a possible partnership between us- Mm-hmm... then let's get into it. But if there's not- Mm-hmm... then let's, you know... 29:46 But you've gotta, you have to be your own best advocate, you know? Let's honor the time that we have and say, "Oh, no. No one's gonna stand up for me and my time except me, so I have to do that." Yeah. 29:58 And what, like what is it like working with governments and stuff? I b- I bet it's different than working with investors. Yeah. It, it definitely is. There's a lot of red tape. 30:06 One of the reasons why, um, VC typically has avoided gov tech business models is because each customer, so let's say you sell to counties like we do, each customer is different. 30:18 Each customer requires a different process to work with them, so different hoops to jump through, et cetera. 30:25 And so for, for some investors, right, if, if a company's selling to government, which is kind of each customer is a big question mark, like how do we sell to them? 30:34 We don't know, and we won't know until we, we start selling. 30:37 Um, it might be easier to sell to a business because there's, someone can just make a decision at a business, unlike in government that like requires a bunch of people to be involved. 30:46 And a, uh, when I was first pitching Perimeter-VCs did offer to invest early on if we would be willing to switch our business model to sell to insurance companies and to sell to a, a business that they knew. 31:02 But I didn't start Perimeter just to make a lot of money. If I did, if I was trying to make a lot of money, I would not start a gov tech company when I was 22. Like, that's not, that is not what I would have done. 31:13 I would have started a lifestyle company or something where being a 22-year-old blonde, like, might be an advantage. In government, I do not think that it is. 31:21 [laughs] People see me and they're like- That is some real talk... dude, they're like, "So are you a summer intern?" I'm like, "No, I'm the founder." Oh, God. [laughs] They're like, "The founder? 31:31 Like, what is your job title?" I'm like, "CEO." Like- [laughs] Ever heard that one before? [laughs] Oh my gosh. Um, but anyway, so- Oh my God... 31:39 but for me, there was, but there was never a question about who my, like, target customer or user would be, because I started this company to solve a very specific problem, and I actually like the complexity. 31:53 You know, I'm not, I'm not dissuaded by the complexity. I find it really interesting and exciting, and I like working with the folks in government. 32:02 And for me, I think the amount of complexity that exists around this business is part of the reason why I'm still, I think pretty obviously, in the honeymoon phase with Perimeter, even though I've been building this company for four years. 32:14 It's so interesting still, and so I keep coming back. Wow. No, that's so interesting. I mean, it's so... There's not really much information online about what it's like to work with the government. It's like the... 32:26 And as you mentioned, like, they're all very different, and so every time you're, you're going on that path, right, you're, like, learning something new and you're figuring things out in real time. Like, do you... 32:36 Like, I feel like that's, like, very much of a critical life skill to have. Like, it's, it's so much more than just your job. Like, there's so many other jobs and just, like, life in general. 32:45 Like, if you can figure things out in real time as it's coming at you, and, like, drink from the fire hose, as they say- [laughs]... no pun intended to your company at all. 32:54 [laughs] Um, yeah, you can really become a lot more successful in ways. Like, do you have any, like, practical tips or advice for people who wanna get better at that skill? At which skill in particular? 33:05 This idea of, like, learning and iterating in real time as you're navigating the space- Yeah... rather than, like, being more in a position where you're, like, prepping in advance. Yeah, yeah. 33:14 I would say the best skill, the skill that has served me the most in this space, um, when it comes to rapid learning or iteration, is asking really good questions. 33:24 And sometimes a really good question, like, you don't sit around a table and come up with all of the really good questions, like, in a vacuum. 33:33 You iterate on those questions by having deep conversations with your potential customer and giving yourself that time to, you know, once they give you that first answer, like, get to the next, you know, get to the next answer and the next answer. 33:47 Like, really figuring out what the problem is that you're trying to solve. 33:51 I think it goes way deeper than what you might think on the surface, because there are all these underlying causes and mechanisms around why a problem still exists in the first place. 34:04 And you might think, like, oh, the problem is that first responders can't get information. It's like, okay, well, what are... Like, imagine it's, it's like a tree, and that's what you see above ground. 34:14 Like, that's, that's your, your clue that there's an issue. But there's this complex root structure, root system below the surface that is actually, like, causal for, like, why that problem exists. 34:27 And I think one of the mistakes that I made early on into Perimeter is not asking enough of the, like, pushy questions, especially around sales. 34:39 If I had been willing to try to sell and say one of the questions, "Will you buy this?" Then earlier on I would've been able to realize that I was trying to sell to the wrong person. 34:49 Early on, I was trying to sell to fire departments, not to the county. And when I finally was ready, the product was good to go, ready to sell to fire departments, they were saying, like, "No," like, "We can't... 35:00 We don't really have the budget for this." I'm like, "I don't understand. You're the ones who've been telling me that we have this life or death problem that you're facing." 35:08 And so if I'd asked better questions and even pushier questions early on, like, "Okay, I've built it. Let's say that I've built it. Will you buy it right now? Next month, will you buy this if it exists?" 35:20 If they'd said no, and then I could say, "Well, then who could buy it for you?" Then I would've learned and saved a lot of time in order... you know, in, in terms of being able to find the right customer. 35:31 And so when it comes to rapid iteration, we have to be asking those hard questions and finding the area where, um, momentum contin- like, the me- momentum continues, because there are so many doors that we could knock on forever that never open, but some doors when you start knocking, they open easily, and there's another door, and another door, and another door. 35:55 And I think that one of the things that we need to look for as founders is the market demand. And for me, the market demand feels kind of like... Like, I compare it to riding a wave, if you're a surfer. 36:07 Like, if you try to swim into the wave, and you try to go a direction that the wave isn't going, then, like, you're just gonna get eaten by the ocean. It's not gonna be fun. 36:16 But if you can find out what the de- market demand is, and, like, where that wave is progressing, then you only need a board and a little bit of paddling in order to stand up and, like, have a really great wa- ride. 36:29 So where are your minimal resources going to? Um, where can you place them in the market that that momentum automatically generates itself? Mm-hmm. Yeah. 36:41 I mean, you also have to create this, like, service area of luck that, to even have these conversations in the first place, right? 36:46 Like, it's only once you put yourself in the situation where you're talking to the right person can you, like, ask those deeper questions. Like, how do we create that for ourselves? 36:55 Even if it, even if we're not founders, right? Like-Everyone has their own journey. We're talking to a lot of people, getting to the deeper answer. 37:02 Maybe that's something as small as, like, an informational interview to get a job, right? But it's like similar process at a, at a different, like, level. Definitely. 37:10 And, you know, I think luck is really interesting because it does play a big role in success in my opinion, but there are ways that we can generate luck, and there, there are two ways. 37:23 One is obviously by repetition, right? If you put yourself out there enough times, like, eventually you'll get lucky. Like, just in terms of probability, that's how it's gonna work, you know? 37:34 If you, if you ask enough people if... Like with dating, you know, if you go out with enough people- Mm-hmm... like, you will eventually find someone that you connect with really well. 37:43 So that's one thing, just putting yourself out there and being open to getting rejected, open to things not working out, and, and, you know, just being willing to try. 37:52 But a- another thing that's really interesting about luck and perceived luck is so much of it has to do with our belief around whether or not we're actually lucky. 38:04 So there have been studies done on, on luck specifically, where they'll, they'll have a room full of people who, who say in an interview like, "Yes, I consider myself lucky." 38:16 They'll put them in a room with a bunch of people who say, "I consider myself unlucky," or, "I don't believe in luck," et cetera. And they will give each of these people a magazine or a newspaper to read. 38:28 And time and time again, what these studies have shown is that the people who say, "I'm lucky," who believe that they're lucky, are the ones who flip through this magazine, find the page that says, "You win $100," like, "You can walk up to the person at the table, table ABC, 38:47 collect your $100 and leave." 38:50 And the lucky ones, the people who think that they're lucky, will see that, and they will walk up, and the, the folks who say they're not lucky will sit there and read through this whole magazine and get to the end, and never get up and see that, that banner that kind of led them to ending the study and walking away with $100. 39:09 And you can look at a study like that in two ways. Well, maybe more, but at least two. One, you can say like, "Yeah, well, it's 'cause they're actually lucky." 39:18 It's like, okay, maybe in some cosmic way, but that's kind of lame. Mm-hmm. Like, y- seen another way, it's like, no, they believe it, and so what their brains are doing is they're looking for opportunities to get lucky. 39:32 And we know- Right, in subconscious. Exactly. 39:35 And, you know, we know, thanks to [laughs] neuroscience, that there's a part of our brain called the reticular activating system, the RAS, that filters for what's important to us. 39:46 And so 99% of what we experience, what we're, we're taking in from our senses, is, does not reach our conscious awareness. 39:54 If it did, we'd have to sleep, like, not eight hours a day, but, like, 23 hours a day, 'cause we'd be burning so many calories. Um, but instead, only 1% of what we perceive reaches our awareness. 40:05 And so if you tell yourself a story over and over that like, "I get lucky. I get lucky," eventually your brain will actually believe you and filter luck in, um, like, basically include that in the filtering system. 40:20 It's one of the reasons why if you are in the business of finding a new place to live, and it's important to you- Mm-hmm... 40:27 you'll start seeing for rent signs all over the place that you may not have noticed before, not because there are more for rent signs, but because your brain is now looking for for rent signs. Right. 40:38 We can do that exact same thing, and I think using that, those techniques, I mean, for me, they have made a night and day difference in my quality of life and my happiness levels as a founder because, you know, we really can control... 40:52 We do have some amount of control over, like, our reaction to things and, you know, our, our levels of, like, our, our levels of happiness and joy in our work- Mm-hmm... 41:02 if we're willing to prioritize that, like, filtering system. Right. I mean, it, it boils down to value system, right? It's like what do you wanna prioritize? 41:10 You can't optimize for luck in every domain of your life, but there's very clear pri- priorities for people and, like, you just have to, like, stop for a moment and think about what they are. And then 41:20 al- then believe that you can get them, and then it's kinda like the philosophy about what you're saying, where it's like it'll just naturally happen for you. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. 41:28 And I mean, this is not just, you know, for starting a company or, like, for getting a job, right? It can even be for, like, relationships in your life, right? 41:34 Like, friends you wanna have, partners you wanna find, right? 41:38 Like, if you, one, believe you deserve that type of person in your life, you're going to become that person that that person wants to be friends with, that want, person wants to date, right? Absolutely. 41:49 And then I think the other thing that people forget is that sitting at home [laughs] doesn't also help as well. 41:55 And if there's a certain type of customer you want or the person you wanna meet, like, it actually does help living in big cities and going to events to, like, naturally bump into this person. 42:06 And you could say, "Oh, I got lucky. I, like, randomly met this perfect person that I, you know, signed this, like, contract with and, like, kickstarted my company." 42:15 Um, or you could say, "Oh, I moved to this city where this person was likely to live, and then went to an event, and then manifested and created that luck for myself." Yeah, exactly. 42:24 And, you know, I think saying yes to opportunities, especially in the first, like the earlier stages, the first year of whether it's starting a business or looking for a job, you know, saying yes to being in the environments where the people who could help you get lucky are going to be is such a game changer because no one ever builds, as much as some famous founders would like us to think, like, nobody builds a company on their own. 42:53 It's... And it's not just them and their team- Yeah... right? It's hundreds if not thousands of people and conversations and door open, you know, doors being opened that contributes to us having any amount of success. 43:06 And so saying yes to developing that community and investing in those relationshipsUm, will potentially open so many doors for us in the future. Totally. Do you wanna like build Perimeter forever? 43:19 Like, what's the like 10-year vision for your life? Yeah, so I definitely, I definitely want Perimeter to be a, a company that survives for, and, and thrives for decades, ideally for my entire life. I- And after. 43:35 Yes, right. Uh, yeah, especially, definitely. Um [laughs] Never mind, I was gonna go a direction. I'm like, no, never mind. [laughs] Redirect. It's a legacy you're gonna leave. Yeah, exactly. 43:44 And you know, I really want this to be built, and I'm working to build it in a way that, that lays a foundation for the long run. You know, this is not like, this is not a get rich quick scheme. Like, no way. 43:57 This is something that I, that I really want to, you know, dedicate time and energy and value to. 44:02 I also believe that at different stages of the company, different people might be, different skillsets, um, are needed for the company's direction. 44:13 So since I haven't run Perimeter at any stage other than the stages that I've gone through thus far, I can't tell you what s- what exact skills will be necessary to continue taking Perimeter from not just from zero to one, but one to 10, and 10 to 100, and 100 to 1,000, et cetera, et cetera. 44:31 And if at some point in the future I believe that someone else could help Perimeter grow and could help, you know, build it in a way that was more effective, if that person exists and that person isn't me, I would rather them take on Perimeter. 44:46 Mm. Because this is not as much as I'm wrapped up in it. Like, the thing that matters to me most is that Perimeter exists and people are able to get information that could save their lives during natural disasters. 44:59 And so in terms of that 10-year vision, I have a vision for the company. But for myself personally, I don't know if I'm always going to be the most strategic CEO, um, for the company at, at different stages. 45:10 What I do know is whatever I end up doing next, it's probably going to revolve heavily around these questions about health that I mentioned earlier, health, physical health, mental health, emotional, spiritual performance, because so much of my journey has really revolved around those things. 45:33 Mm-hmm. And that's what I expect the next part of my life- Mm... 45:38 to be really dedicated to, is helping people who are in these types of situations, who are, you know, ambitious performers, like helping them lay the foundation of their lives- Mm... 45:50 so that they can continue performing for- Mm-hmm... a long time. Yeah. That makes it... That's interesting. 45:54 What do you think is the biggest obstacle for like young, ambitious women today as it, as it pertains to their health and maintaining it? 46:00 I think the biggest obstacle is this idea that everything else is a priority before our health, and so many women knows, know what it's like to have this long list of priorities, including taking care of our family, taking care of our partners, taking care of our friends in some cases. 46:21 Like, many of us knows, know what it's like to- Yeah, we're natural caretakers. Exactly. It's just like biologically who we are. Exactly. 46:27 And so to play that caretaking role with everyone else and then leave nothing but scraps for ourselves at best, I think many of us are raised in that way. 46:37 And one of the, one of the biggest obstacles and thus opportunities for maintaining like just a, a sense of thriving is realizing, okay, if I only have three priorities today, one of those is me. 46:53 One of those is my health. One of those is making sure that I'm eating at regular intervals and drinking enough water and getting enough sleep, basic, basic stuff, getting enough sunlight. 47:03 Like, things that seem like nice to haves. I used to think of the, like working out, I used to think of it as a nice to have because I liked it. I used to do sports- Oh, God, I feel called out. 47:12 I think it's a nice to have. [laughs] Oh, God. And for me, and for, for me, it completely changes my, my emotional and I would say like cognitive- Really?... presence at work. 47:27 And it doesn't have to be, like you don't have to be lifting weights necessarily. Mm-hmm. But just getting those- Mm-hmm... 47:31 those 30 minutes of movement every day so that you get to experience the endorphins and the clarity that comes from, you know, moving and, you know, getting our bodies outside, et cetera, it does so much for our mental health and our physical health and our energy levels that it's wild to me that I, I used to think of it as a nice to have. 47:52 But when you realize that some of the basic tenets of physical health are nutrition, 47:59 water, sunlight, exercise, sleep, like if you're taking care of those things, and that's like one of your priorities is your physical health, you'll be able to not only continue, you know, performing at high levels, but you'll be able to do so in a way that feels like thriving as opposed to feel, feeling like getting hit and dragged by a- Mm... 48:21 semi-truck every day, which is how I used to feel. Yeah. No, I mean, that's, that's really interesting. I definitely relate to a lot of the things that you said of, you know, burnout and deprioritization of health. 48:33 I think I'm still learning. I mean, I learned so much from you in this moment already. I think where I struggle is I believe it. I do agree with you. It's very hard to do in practice. 48:45 I'm like, agreed, working out is important, but like when I wake up in the morning and I wake up kind of late because I slept really late 'cause I was trying to finish up work, and then I have my email blowing up, and then I have a meeting to get to, and then a podcast to record, and then by the time it's like 9:00 PM and I'm like, "Well, I didn't work today. 49:01 I just like basically survived." Mm-hmm. And then I like go into work. It's like in those moments it's very difficult to be like, "Well, I'm just gonna pause all of that and like go to the gym for an hour," you know? 49:10 Yeah. And it, it sounds so obvious, but it's so hard to in practice. Yeah. 49:15 I, I agree, and I think that creating, like giving yourself a month or two to make this a habit-And recognizing like, okay, for two months I'm gonna make this a habit, and then after that your body is like yearning for it- Mm... 49:30 can be really helpful. That's a trick, I guess. Yeah, absolutely. And for me, at the end, I, I typically go to the gym at the end of the workday. 49:38 And so, or, or, you know, in the late afternoon at the very least, even if I'm gonna come back and do more work, like I tend to go to the gym, um, in the late afternoon. 49:48 And when I'm tired and I don't feel like going, that is not a trigger to not go. 49:55 Like, I still go even when I'm tired because I know that momentum creates momentum, and if I go to the gym and I'm exhausted and it's 6:00 PM and I'm like, "I had a really hard day, I don't feel like doing anything, I just wanna lay on my couch and eat ice cream," um, maybe I, I can do that later. 50:13 Mm-hmm. But at 6:00 PM, I'm going to, at the very least, ride the stationary bike for 30 minutes. And what I've found is by the end of that, I feel like a powerhouse. Wow. I feel ready to go- And you do this every day? 50:25 I, I would say six days a week. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And on the other days I try to do something outside, so surfing or hiking or something that gets me in nature, because that is like, 50:38 that is- Oh, that's restorative-... so powerful... in a whole other way. I actually do a lot of that. Awesome. I'll do a lot of being outside. Like for me, that is like literally happiness. Yeah. 50:47 Like I need to be by the sunlight, need to be in nature regularly. I need to go walk. So in that way I'm active because I have this like need to be in nature and to like find, that, like use sunlight for energy. 50:58 I mean, like this is literally- Yeah... like chemistry. You need to go out there and photosynthesize. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] But I'm like kind of extreme. 51:04 It's like actually a big reason why I'm like struggling with SF right now, 'cause I think it's not very pleasant to be outside. Right. And I like need that in my day-to-day. 51:12 But outside of that, right, especially in those really busy days, or especially when in the time that I'm in SF and I'm not able to get outside as much 'cause it's much colder, which I'm in SF a lot, like a lot of work happens here, how do I g- I need to get myself to the gym because I, I've committed to it. 51:26 I've put it in my calendar. Like you mentioned, maybe it doesn't matter if I'm tired or I'm busy, like those are not reasons to not go. Mm-hmm. Because 30 minutes, that's really all it is, what you're saying. Yeah. 51:36 Like, we have 30 minutes for anything and everything. Definitely. Like, we would find it if we care about it and if we value it. Exactly. 51:42 And you know, even to start small for all of us like workaholics out there, we can start by taking one of our phone calls as a walking meeting. If you can take one phone call- Yeah... 51:53 as a walking meeting, then you're already getting the practice, and you don't have to go to the gym. Like, you could literally just go on a walk outside. That will be super restorative. 52:02 And the other thing is, as far as- That's a good hack... totally. 52:05 As far as taking breaks goes, if we want to be the best performers we can be, then we ought to look at the techniques that increase performance, like th- that have data behind those techniques, right? 52:22 We know that working all day without breaks zaps our, or saps our productivity. It does not improve our productivity. It drastically reduces our productivity. 52:33 And so as much as it's easy to have the story, and I have this story still, I work on it every day, that says like, "No, I have to keep working. If I'm not sitting at my desk, I'm not being productive. 52:44 Like, I'm gonna fail. My company's not gonna work out." Like, it's the, you know, et cetera, et cetera. 52:49 If I recognize actually high performers take breaks every 50, f- every 50 minutes they take a 10-minute break in order to refocus, set an intention, take a break, get some water, stretch, and, you know, go to the bathroom- Right... 53:05 come back to work. Not, don't look at TikTok. That's not a break. Don't look at TikTok. That's not a break. [laughs] That is like, ugh, vortex. 53:10 [laughs] Um, so if you give yourself those things, that's what high performers do. Mm-hmm. And it's like how long do you wanna not be a high performer? Mm-hmm. Because you might think you're operating at your best. 53:20 You're a six out of 10 right now. Or for me, I was like a four out of 10. Yeah. Just not- And you're like-... not getting what you want... you, you feel so tired you're like, "Wait, this is my 10." 53:28 But you're really not in your optimized potential. You know, some of the most like famous people, like CEOs of like the biggest companies, do the least amount of work. 53:37 Like, they spend, they spend half their day like reading, resting, reflecting, tweeting. [laughs] Because it's important to like build thought leadership, right? Yeah. It like drives so much business. 53:50 Um, and then the rest is like two hours of like making decisions in a meeting. Yeah. 53:54 Because they've built a flywheel that works with their company, they've set good strategy, they trust their team that they hired, and most importantly, they understand that to get the most out of those two hours, to make really great decisions that continue the company to move forward, is like they need to be rested and they need to be able to funnel into their creative juice. 54:15 And that comes from restoration- Yeah... and reflection. Yeah, absolutely. 54:19 And at Alchemist Accelerator, I had a mentor say to me one time, 'cause I was, I was burning out really hard, and I was actually coming off of another fire in my hometown. 54:29 Like, I'd just spent some time with the fire department, and I was really in addition, in addition to physical exhaustion, like I was completely emotionally exhausted. 54:37 Like, I was riding in a command vehicle for a fire department on wineries that I used to work at. Mm-hmm. And it was like super emotionally devastating- Yeah... for me, and confusing. 54:47 And when I went back to, um, an event for my accelerator in San Francisco, he said, he looked at me, and I must, I must've looked bad [laughs] 'cause he was like, "Bailey, are you taking any time off? 54:59 Like, are you resting at all? Are you recovering?" And I'm like, "I don't know how to answer that question. No, of course not." [laughs] Like, what do you mean? Like, I wake up, I work, I fall asleep at my computer. 55:10 Yeah. Like, that's my life right now. Yeah, and it's like, and, and in that moment, especially when you're like inexperienced and you're just starting out, it's when you're like, "Wait, I'm supposed to do this." 55:17 Yeah, exactly. It feels obvious. Yeah. And, and we hear that story all the time. We hear like, "Oh, you gotta like-"You've gotta be burning yourself out. Like, you know, if you're not- Yeah... 55:26 if you're taking time to eat, and like- Yeah... I always think you can store that. If you're not doing the most, like someone will beat you to it, whatever. Exactly. And that is a very, like- It's toxic mindset... 55:35 it's a very, it's also like a very toxically masculine mindset. It's like, wait a second. Yeah. 55:39 But, you know, the 9:00 to 5:00 works, I just learned recently that, um, men have like a 24-hour hormonal cycle, and women have a 28-day hormonal cycle. 55:48 And so at different points in the month, we are like, "Go, go, go, go, go," like very powerful, and other times it's like, okay, we need to actually like rest and recover a little bit more, just based on where our hormones are at. 56:00 And so it makes sense- Yeah... that every day, like men specifically are like, "Go, go, go, go, go, go, go." 56:06 And there are some weeks where I feel like, gosh, I'm so tired, like, and I realize I've, I, I recently thought- And then we beat ourselves up for it. 56:13 We think we're the problem because we don't fit into the patriarchal society- [laughs]... that was like built for men to have this 9:00 to 5:00 workforce. We're like, and then we're like, "Oh, we're not good enough." 56:22 Yeah. Totally. It's like- But we aren't even biologically built like that. 56:25 And what if we see those, like that cycle as an opportunity for us to have like amounts of rest that can be incredibly, like productive for driving momentum in the future. 56:41 Um, but I realize I didn't finish that thought about the accelerator. Mm-hmm. He saw me and he's like, "Are you taking time off?" I'm like, "No, I'm not." 56:48 And he's like, "Bailey, your job is to make decisions for the company. At the end of the day, as, as a CEO, your job is to make decisions. And in our lives, our job is to make decisions about what to do with our lives." 57:02 He's like, "How can you make good decisions, let alone the best decisions, if you are completely exhausted and functioning at like 2%?" And I was like- Yeah... "Wait a second. 57:14 This is a super successful mentor, investor, founder who's talking to me right now. How could I never have thought about that? Like, if it's my job to make good decisions, then why-" 'Cause you're operating on 2%. 57:26 You couldn't see the obvious. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Right. Literally. Like I'm like, I'm so sleep deprived. I'm like completely delirious. Yeah. 57:32 I'm like, wait a second, if my job is to make the best decisions, then what helps me make good decisions? 57:37 Well, besides my health, which we've already, I think, talked about enough, besides that, um, reading helps me make good decisions. 57:44 Um, like you said, spending time in nature, and we all know that we should be like meditating and practicing like surrendering thoughts, et cetera. 57:54 Um, getting that meditative time, even if it's not meditating, like for some people, it might be like a flow state activity like surfing or snowboarding or running, et cetera. Yeah. 58:00 I was gonna say, like sometimes we focus too much on like, you should like meditate, journal, sleep, do yoga, blah, blah, blah. That doesn't mean that that's the best way. 58:10 Like meditation as a concept, like I can't meditate, but when I'm swimming and I'm underwater and I can't hear any noises and I can't get distracted by devices, literally can't have devices underwater, that is the way, only way that I can meditate, and I can truly transcend into a higher state in that moment. 58:26 And if someone were to give me advice like, "You need to meditate more," and I'm like sitting and staring at the wall for hours and like, ugh, like I can't meditate, I'm, I'm not actually like getting what is needed out of meditation for me to do better. 58:38 But it's really important to like look within yourself and see, okay, what works for you, right? For me, that's swimming. Yeah. For someone else, maybe they're like, "I don't like swimming." What, it's something else. 58:45 Like you said, surfing could be another thing. Absolutely. And I, I think, so for me, I, I do a lot of habit coaching with people. 58:51 This is a big passion of mine, and something that, you know, people bring up a lot, just like what you just said, is like, "Well, I know that I should be doing all of these things. 59:00 Like I should be meditating and journaling and getting 30 minutes of, you know, time out in the gym, and I should be eating better, and all these things. It's like, where do I start?" 59:09 It's like, well, which thing are you excited about? Like which thing do you feel a little, like a little buzz around? You know, like, oh, like actually I really do wanna do that. Let that be your first one. 59:19 When we try to take on everything at once, like you said, we do nothing well. Mm-hmm. And so how can you use something that you're interested in doing to, um, to basically uplift the other areas of your life? 59:31 People have found that when someone makes a commitment to start working out, naturally, without a ton of additional willpower, they start eating better. They start sleeping better, because- That's super true, yeah... 59:41 they get this keystone habit that, um, it reminds me of that, that idea that a rising tide lifts all boats. 59:49 And if you can have, like if you can give yourself that swimming, it's like, no, I swim because it's good for me physically, because it gets me like in flow, and it helps me like meditate and get that clarity, it's going to uplift other areas of your lives as well. 1:00:05 Yeah. So if you want to start a new habit, following the things that give you energy is such a good way of uplifting all these other areas of your life that might event- Like, who knows? 1:00:17 Maybe you eve- eventually will start meditating on top of swimming because you're like, "Wow, I actually want more of that feeling in my life, and sometimes I want it at the office when I'm not in a swimsuit." You know? 1:00:27 You never know. That is so true. 1:00:30 Like I, although on eating, like I feel like I, when I don't put my body as a priority, getting good sleep, and like going to work out, I'll just put totally just any junk food in my body. Yeah. 1:00:41 Like I'm like, I don't care. It's like, I'm anyways kind of in like going downwards. We might as well just like add on to that. 1:00:47 [laughs] But it's like when I work out and I get good rest and I'm feeling good in those ways, I don't wanna eat junk food then. I don't wanna like ruin all of the work that I put in. 1:00:54 I want to like go buy a salmon and then go put that in the air fryer and like feel- Yeah... complete in that like restorative journey. Yeah. So it's like every good habit actually propels you onto another good habit. 1:01:04 And then you're- Exactly... like, that, so that, what you're saying makes so much sense. I've like felt that in my life. Yeah. 1:01:08 And when you have that identity around, like when you, you know, if you're swimming, you're working out, et cetera, and you have this identity even just on a daily basis, like, oh, I'm kind of an athlete. 1:01:18 Like, no big deal, but like I got up and swam before work. [laughs] Yeah. Like I'm kind of ultra powerful people. Yeah. You carry that-... with you, and that identity affects other areas of your life. Oh. 1:01:29 You're more likely to take risks if you feel like you're powerful, and maintaining even one good habit tells our brains, "I can trust myself because I did my habit this morning." 1:01:41 And so I know that even if things don't work out later, like later today with this thing, like I know that I have some underlying consistency that I'm gonna fall back to, and we need to trust ourselves in order to leap for anything that we envision, whether that's creating a company or just getting a job that feels more fulfilling and energizing- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... 1:02:02 than our current job or, you know, getting out of a relationship that feels toxic and, you know, trusting that there's a much more, like a much healthier- Yeah... and like energizing relationship that's out there. Mm. 1:02:15 We need to kind of foster that trust in ourselves so that we have the, like the gas in the tank to go for the things that matter to us. Right. And, and these are all really hard things. 1:02:26 Like none of, none of what you said is easy. No. Um, I'm so glad we talked about this. I feel like this is a conversation like I really wanted to have, but I didn't know I wanted it till we had it. 1:02:36 Like it feels, it feels restorative and energizing to even like talk about these things that are hard to talk about, and I don't think we give enough importance to talking about physical health, mental health. 1:02:48 So oh my God, I just like love this, love this conversation so much. Thank you. If you could go back in time and give your younger self some advice, what would you tell her? 1:02:57 I would tell her to make her health, mental, physical, emotional, one of those top three priorities every single day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of been the theme of this conversation, I think. Yeah, yeah. 1:03:09 And telling ourselves, and for me, telling her, "You deserve it. You deserve it. You deserve to feel fulfilled. You deserved, you deserve to thrive. You deserve to, you know, get so much out of this experience." 1:03:24 And when you are getting a ton out of this experience, it's because you're healthy and present enough to really enjoy it. 1:03:32 And if I had known that early on, maybe I wouldn't have had to, you know, get hit by that cosmic frying pan over and over, but if that was the mechanism to, you know, then unpack some of this stuff, I'm, I'm really grateful for it. 1:03:45 Yeah. No, couldn't agree more. Okay, one last fun question. Okay. Tell us about your tattoos. Okay. They look so cool. Thank you very much. Um, yeah, my, my parents were a little bit horrified, uh- [laughs]... 1:03:57 at first when they found out. So, not, my mom wasn't. She actually encouraged me to do it. But my- Oh... family was like, "Oh my gosh, you're gonna get tattoos, visible tattoos on your arm?" 1:04:05 [laughs] Um, so I actually have a lot of spiritual significance around these tattoos, and one of the things that was really stressful for me when I was starting the company is, and I didn't realize this at the time, but I was, my ego and identity was so wrapped up in the company and whether or not I succeeded or failed that every failed pitch was so brutal, so painful, and I was so afraid of failure. 1:04:31 And I talked to one of my mentors, and I told him about a really bad pitch, and I was really embarrassed. And he's like, "I can't believe you don't see what the problem is." And I'm like, "What? 1:04:41 Like, you see what the problem is? What do you mean?" And he said, "Yeah, the problem is that you're making this all about you. 1:04:48 You're making this all about your bad pitch and how like, you know, you looked and what people are gonna think about you instead of the work that you're doing. And the work that you're doing matters. 1:04:58 And if you focus on the work, then you don't have to have this like intense ego pain every time something doesn't work out. Like, you just keep focusing, refocusing on the work that you're doing." And 1:05:12 when he said that, this huge weight felt like it fell off of my shoulders, and I was like, oh, if I focus on just the work and not about what everyone thinks about me and whether or not I was good enough to do this, then 1:05:26 I actually have so much more ease and peace around the experience that I'm having. 1:05:31 And so I got these tattoos as a reminder from, there's this, um, spiritual, sometimes religious idea that we are the hands and feet of God, and I love this, this idea that my hands are here on the planet to do good works on behalf of whatever dropped me here. 1:05:53 Like why, what... For whatever reason, I'm here in this moment in time. I don't know why, but my commitment and the reason for getting these tattoos is to remind myself that my hands are here to do g- those good works. 1:06:06 To do that service, yeah. Exactly. 1:06:07 And when I make it about this part of me, when I make it about my identity and what everyone, you know, is thinking about me, then it, it feels really overwhelming, and I don't feel like I'm, I'm experiencing a lot of peace. 1:06:19 But when I focus on, you know, the work itself, and it doesn't have to be perfect, it just, you know, I just have to keep committing and recommitting every day, then I experience so much more peace and joy- Mm-hmm... 1:06:31 and fulfillment about, you know- Mm... the work that I'm doing and the days that I'm having. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that was, that was so beautiful. Thank you. Yeah. 1:06:41 And- And when you make salmon in your Air fryer, please invite me over because- [laughs]... it sounds awesome. [laughs] It takes me 30 seconds. No. What? Yeah. Actually, my boyfriend taught me this trick. 1:06:52 You just pour salmon, uh, sorry, pour salmon. [laughs] Blend it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You blend up the salmon. Make a smoothie. [laughs] Yeah. 1:06:59 Pour pesto on the salmon and pop it in the air fryer, specifically Costco pesto. Okay. And that's it. That's all you do. And it come- like, one ingredient, pesto. Yeah. And then it comes out like better than... 1:07:10 We don't order salmon at restaurants anymore 'cause it's worse. There's no salmon that's better than this. [laughs] Literally. Go, everyone go try it. Okay. 1:07:17 It's-30 second job I'll try it today And then you pop it in the air fryer, and then you come back, go train, it's like your meal's done. Yeah. You're like, "Wow" Super healthy. You're like, "No big deal. I'm- Yeah... 1:07:26 I'm kind of amazing" Yeah. "I just ate salmon for dinner." [laughs] Exactly. Um, well, wow, you were so good. 1:07:33 I cannot believe that you are not, like, all over TikTok, 'cause you're just, like, the most amazing storyteller. Thank you. 1:07:38 Like, you're so good at communication and articulation, and having a powerful message, and, like, having critical thought on, like, the things you're thinking about. 1:07:46 And I think there's one thing to, like, have critical thought and, like, have value-driven, like, reflections about, like, yourself, but then to say it in a way that actually benefits other people is just a whole other step that I... 1:07:58 I mean, you're, you're amazing. Thank you so much. Yeah. I feel the exact same way about you. [laughs] And I was very inspired by your social media presence. I just created my TikTok, like, two weeks ago. 1:08:09 Right now- Oh my God, I have to follow you. Okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna warn you, [laughs] it's very meme heavy right now. It's like- No, that's good. I mean-... this very silly side of me. I've been loving it. Perfect. 1:08:18 Whatever your outlet is. Like, I, I think people often feel this need to be, like, this educational thought leader on TikTok, but it's like, no, express yourself, be authentic. Like, people will resonate with it. 1:08:29 And- Yeah... people wanna just know you for you, right? Yeah. So, oh my God, I'm, I'm gonna follow you. I'm gonna, like, stalk all your videos. I'm so excited. Okay. I think, I think I'm bayley.faron. 1:08:37 That is perfect for you. Okay. I think that's me- Perfect. Perfect... on TikTok. Oh, a- You'll be my fourth follower... also, oh my God, that ring. Can we look at it? Yeah. Are you engaged? I am. Oh my God. 1:08:44 No, I just wear this. I mean- [laughs]... I just wear this. Okay. [laughs] I'm not engaged. [laughs] Yeah, I got engaged, um, earlier this year. Oh my God, congratulations. So the wedding is next July. 1:08:55 [gasps] Congratulations. Thank you. Where'd you meet your partner? We met rock climbing, actually. Oh, yeah? 1:09:01 One of, one of my best friends from college, he invited me and Matthew, my fiance, he invited us both to go rock climbing with him, right? It was gonna be all three of us, friends. 1:09:12 I mean, I hadn't met Matthew yet, but all three of us getting together to climb. And then my friend didn't show up, so he set us up- He set us-... without telling us- Oh, wow... 1:09:21 that he was setting us up, because- Oh my God, he must take credit for the entire wedding. He does, and he's going to be the best man at the wedding. So- Oh, that's adorable. That's perfect... 1:09:28 he definitely will be giving a speech. Yeah. Um, and it's so perfect because neither me nor Matthew was looking for a relationship. And you hear that, and it's like, it's totally when it happens. But- Right... 1:09:38 I was very much focused on Perimeter and telling myself this story that, you know, it's either a boyfriend or it's Perimeter, and I can't do both things well. 1:09:47 And I had a friend of mine, um, Christy, say that, um, what if your relationship and your company could have, like, a symbiotic relationship with each other? 1:09:59 Like, what if you become a better founder because you're- Yeah... experiencing all these positive emotions and safety and love from a relationship? She was tot- she's right about everything. 1:10:09 She was totally right about that. Awe. And I've been a much better... I've just been m- I've had much better results since- Yeah... [laughs] getting into this relationship. Yeah. So. 1:10:16 Well, it shows also how great of a man he is to provide that relationship for you, 'cause you can't say that all relationships are like that, right? No. 1:10:23 And that's a lot of the times why, as women, we're like, "Oh, but, like, we know that alternative relationships exist," and so it's like, do we wanna embark on this when there's this other big thing happening in life? 1:10:32 But I also am, like, a huge believer of a healthy relationship makes you a better person, it makes you more productive. Like, 1:10:40 if you're doing a hard thing, being in a healthy relationship is only helpful, o- obviously assuming that they provide those things for you. Absolutely. 1:10:46 And if you're in an unhealthy relationship, just like having an unhealthy habit, like, if it's toxic to you and it's exhausting, then that's going to affect the other areas of your life too. You know? It doesn't... 1:10:56 These things don't happen in a vacuum. They're all related. They're all feeding- For sure... each other, et cetera. Sure. Yeah. I mean, your, your partner is the one who gives you that energy that you can bring to work. 1:11:06 Yeah, absolutely. It's, they're definitely a, a, a contributing factor. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. Thank you so much. This was awesome. This was so fun. I'm so excited about my salmon dinner tonight. 1:11:15 [laughs] I'm literally gonna go buy an air fryer right now. Dude, they're so cheap. Like- They're, like, 60 bucks on Amazon. I know. It's like I have, I have a very... 1:11:24 I'll, like, furnish my house and have a lot of the essentials, but, like, I realized yesterday I still don't have a pot and a ladle. Okay. [laughs] It's like, okay, I have a- Dude, you don't need anything... 1:11:33 I have a lemon squeezer... just an air fryer literally pays itself off in two dinners. Yeah. 1:11:36 Like, salmon costs, like, $30 at a restaurant, and they give you half the size anyways of, like, what a normal portion to eat is. Totally. Literally pays it off in two dinners. I've been looking for a reason. 1:11:45 It's like the most- I've been waiting for the catalyst for the air fryer. [gasps] I pass it at Target, like, every week, and I still haven't gotten it. Today's the day. Amazon it. Yeah. Don't even go to it. 1:11:52 Don't even, don't even leave the house. No, have it delivered to you. Two minute, you're gonna do this after. [laughs] Okay. You got it. [upbeat music]
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