Transcript 0:00 I don't wanna be the Brown girl writing about Brown girls. I feel like no one's gonna take it seriously. They're gonna say, "Of course she's writing about that." 0:05 And I had an editor, and actually, like, a white dude, so shout out to white dudes in this, only in this moment. [laughs] Um, he was like- Thank you so much for coming. Of course. I'm, like, so excited to have you. 0:20 I've followed your content for so long. Aw. [laughs] Um, and so when someone mentioned you when I was looking for a guest, I was like, "Wait, she would be perfect. I hope she responds," and then you did. Oh my God. 0:30 Well, you got me at such a good time. [laughs] Like I said, I was doing a podcast forever, and then I just changed jobs and I'm not doing the podcast anymore, so I'm, like, always looking for ways to hop back on the mic. 0:39 Yeah. So thanks for having me. Amazing. And I love the name, Jen She. Thanks. [laughs] Thanks. Well, why don't we just jump into it? Yeah. Why don't you just introduce yourself to the audience real quick? Cool. 0:47 And also, is my height okay? I feel like I'm, like, very short. No, I think you're perfect. So my height's good? Okay. Yeah, you're perfect. Cool. Yeah. So I'm Natasha Mascareñas. 0:56 I'm a reporter at The Information, and I've wanted to be a reporter since I was in sixth grade, so it's a super boring story of someone who's always known what she [laughs] wanted to do. 1:06 Um, but it really started, and I think I was good at, I knew I was good at it when I went to school in Boston, Boston University, um, and just started doing internships and learned about entrepreneurship and Series A rounds. 1:16 And fast-forward to now, I cover a lot of startups and venture capital firms across all stages. Wait, also so cool that you always knew what you wanted to do. Yeah. Cannot relate at all. 1:26 [laughs] Still don't know what I wanna do. And I know that so many people in our community specifically are trying to navigate this right now. Yeah. How'd you figure it out? 1:35 Well, I, so I think the grass is always greener, right? Mm-hmm. Like, I think people who have always known are like, "Oh my gosh," like, "I wish I was more, [laughs] I experimented more with my life." 1:44 And then the people who don't know what they wanna do, they wish they had some sort of direction and clarity. 1:49 For me, I knew I loved writing, and I knew I loved talking to people, and so my first attempt at this job was I, like, told my Indian parents, I was like, "I'm gonna be a poet or a creative writer." 1:59 And they were like, "We need you to find a more professional version of that job that feels more stable," um, given the immigrant mindset. Um, and so I literally Googled professional writing jobs- [laughs]... 2:09 and it was journalism. So I'll be honest, like, me in sixth grade knew I wanted to be a journalist, mostly 'cause it was a professional form of writing. 2:16 I only knew I wanted to do it as, like, an actual career, as an actual, like, person when I started doing it in college more and realized that it was, you know, not just writing. 2:27 It was, like, elevating voices, and I just found it crazy, and I still find it crazy that this job is the kind of job where people will just kind of tell you things, and you can amplify it, and it's a crazy sort of, kind of, I don't know, architecting, architecture that I can- Yeah... 2:41 get to do on a daily basis. Yeah, I mean, it's a really powerful job. You get to tell people's stories and amplify voices, like- Right... 2:47 so, like, I feel like the one thing that w- like, really stood out to me was, like, oh, like, another Indian American, 'cause I'm an Indian American. I was like- Yeah. Oh, my God... 2:55 oh, like, we need so much more representation in this space, and we specifically need, like, diverse voice- diverse voices sharing our stories. Right. Um, yeah, I mean, I have so many questions about this. 3:05 Oh my gosh, yeah. But, like, where do we even begin? [laughs] Like, how has being an Indian American influenced, like, the decisions you make in your career, and also how you do share people's stories as a reporter? 3:15 Yeah. Oh my God, how long do we have? [laughs] Like, that is the whole story. We could talk about this for the whole hour. I know. I wanna dive into it. 3:21 So I will say, like, the, I, so I, I'm, like, I'm a tech journalist right now. 3:26 Before I found the world of tech, I wanted to just be a journalist at large, and oftentimes that meant, like, to me, profiling these, you know, larger than life figures to profiling the person who owns the coffee shop next door. 3:38 And when I was in Boston at The Globe, I got to cover this waiter who was retiring, like, the simplest story in the world, in the book. 3:46 And because of kind of my editors at the time, I was able to make it sh- show people how even a small person who's maybe you've never heard of impacts the community at large. 3:57 And I feel like that really, I really resonate with it as an Indian American because we're so used to kind of being these marginalized people in the room, the only person in a room, e- especially in the journalism world, especially in this chief executive tech bro world. 4:13 Mm-hmm. That I found, I find, like, my biggest superpower is, like, kind of having an eye and an, an eye and an ear for the people who are interesting and saying interesting things. 4:24 Um, and to be really specific with you, with being an Indian American, I remember being like, "I don't really want to cash in on being that way." Right. 4:32 "I don't wanna cash in on write, I don't wanna be the Brown girl writing about Brown girls. I feel like no one's gonna take it seriously. They're gonna say, 'Of course she's writing about that.'" 4:39 And I had an editor, and actually, like, a white dude, so shout out to white dudes in this, only in this moment. 4:45 [laughs] Um, he was like, "Listen," like, "you are the only one who sees it this way, and so you should take advantage of that. That's kind of a superpower in a way-" Mm-hmm... 4:54 "to, to write about Brown women and I guess just to write about more marginalized communities in a way that others wouldn't see as important in the same way." Mm-hmm. So I don't know. 5:03 I feel like that was one thing that I would love to pass on is don't think it's cheesy or, you know, or, you know, too obvious- Mm-hmm... to, to write or elevate people who look like you. Mm-hmm. 5:13 It's, like, literally the best way to- Mm-hmm... to grow. Yeah, and you talk mostly about, like, tech and venture. Yeah. How did you get into that world? Like, where did you start, like, building your knowledge about it? 5:24 And how did you- Yeah... like, get connected into that ecosystem as well? Yeah. So like I said, I really used to like covering kind of small businesses and the characters who run local Boston. 5:35 But when it came for summer internships, I had kind of c- completely taken all the ones I could have gotten in Boston, and so I looked to San Francisco. 5:44 And I was like, "Okay, let me go write about mom and pop businesses in SF." 5:47 I got an internship at the SF Chronicle.And when I got there on my first day, I was like, "I'm ready to write about these small, cute businesses." And they were like, "Okay, here that's called startups. Welcome. 5:58 Uh, catch up." 5:59 [laughs] And so [laughs] weirdly enough, uh, it's fitting that I'm on a podcast right now, because basically week one of my internship at the SF Chronicle, they put me on a podcast that's no longer functioning called Startups of the Week. 6:10 And coming with no knowledge, I had to get on a mic once a week and talk about three companies and what they were doing and why they were important. 6:17 And so that's been the be- the most common thread my entire career, is I start learning about things the moment I start writing about them. [laughs] And, and I... That still, that still holds true to this day. 6:27 No, that's so awesome. And outside of, like, journalism- Yeah... what other hobbies, interests do you have? I really like to dance. 6:36 Um, I've, like, been dancing from such a young age, doing our In- Indian association back home in New Jersey. I grew up in central Jersey, so big Brown community there. 6:45 Um, and then more recently I really started to pick up cooking. I just was super anti Indian food growing up, 'cause it was all we ate, and now I'm, like, reclaiming that love for it. [laughs] Ah. Me too- Right?... 6:56 except for the reclaim. I'm, I'm not there yet. [laughs] You're like, "I'm working toward..." Okay, well, I will say- Working, yeah... the, uh, Priya Krishna, who wrote, uh- Mm-hmm... 7:03 Indian-ish, this cookbook that's, like, trying to get everyday grocery items that are found in, like, Trader Joe's or Whole Foods into Indian dishes. So, like, you don't have to look for paneer, you can look for feta. 7:14 I feel like that cookbook is... I've told her this. I... That cookbook really, like, perfectly showed up for me when I was trying to get back into Indian cooking- Mm-hmm... 7:22 because it made it not some, like, thing I have to go to the Indian grocery store, you know- Yeah... 30 minutes away- Yeah... to do. 7:28 I mean, uh, where I struggle is I have this, like, mindset, oh, like, Indian food is unhealthy because- Mm... I've eaten most of it at, like, weddings and stuff. Got it. 7:37 And that is actually not true, 'cause I'm sure there are Indian foods that are healthy, I just, like, don't know them, or, like, maybe I'm not interested in cooking them. 7:45 And so I feel like maybe I need to go check this cookbook out. You should. Oh my gosh. Well, I'm vegetarian too, and I think that- Mm-hmm... 7:51 it's, like, the best place to be vege- it's the best cuisine, I think, to be vegetarian in, because it's not- Yeah... just, like, carbs. Mm-hmm. Like, a bunch of things. 7:58 But yes, cooking is, like, how I spend most of my time not working, writing, or, you know, walking. And you live in SF, full-time now? Yes. I live in SF. I've been here for four years. 8:09 Um, and I feel like now that I have a full community here, it's really nice to, like, not be one foot- Mm-hmm... one foot out. That was, like, so my vibe my first year- Mm-hmm... in SF. Yeah. 8:18 I was a big one foot out girl. I was like, "I'll be back to the East Coast immediately." And I think I will be, but I don't think I'll be there anytime soon. Yeah, totally. 8:24 I mean, it's, y- you are a reporter, but ultimately you are experiencing the day-to-day as a woman in tech, because- Mm... you're in this ecosystem, you're talking to people in, in tech and covering them. 8:34 I wanna dive deeper into that specifically. How has being a woman in journalism, like, affected you? Do you find that you're put in certain situations because of it? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's funny. I, y- like, I, I... 8:49 It's funny that you say women in tech, because it, to me, I'm like, "Oh my gosh, no, I'm not a woman in tech, I'm a woman in journalism." I'm... 8:53 But I do cover tech, and you're right in that I'm in the same rooms- Yeah... as a lot of people who are in tech, and I'm one of the few women in that room a lot of times. I think... 9:03 I mean, there's so many ways to answer that question. 9:05 I would say the, one of the biggest things I started to learn when I first moved here, um, is that being a woman in journalism, um, you know, at times can be something that people will use as a way to get close to you and try and, um, source with you. 9:23 And so I feel like year one of SF, year one of being, like, a professional full-time reporter meant, you know, turning down dates and turning down manicure pedicure appointments in pr- professional contexts, which was a super frustrating thing to do, and something that, as naive as it sounds, I was surprised by. 9:40 I was like, "What do you mean? Like, I'm showing up as a journalist, not as a woman journalist, not as a woman in any way. Like, I, I guess I'm just showing up as a professional person." Mm-hmm. 9:49 "It doesn't need to be, like, a gendered conversation." Mm-hmm. And then people would see me and be like, "The way to get close to Natasha- Mm-hmm... is by asking her on a date," or yeah, asking her- Right... 9:58 for, to get her nails done. And I just, I find those super weird and I find those to be, like, an immediate red flag. Mm-hmm. And I think over time, the moment people try using that as a tactic to get close, 10:10 it, it just, it, it, it just rubs me the wrong way now. Yeah. Yeah. 'Cause, 'cause it doesn't feel authentic then. You're like, "I can see right through this. You don't actually want this." Yeah. Right, and I... 10:19 There's, there's this thing that, like, I'm better at talking about other people than myself, and I, I remember this founder, I remember asking her this ex- exact question. Mm-hmm. 10:26 I was literally like, "What is it like to be a female founder at top of, like, a billion dollar company? Um, it must be difficult." 10:33 And she looks at me and she just kind of sips her coffee, and she was like, "No offense, but I'm never gonna tell you that, because I have my group chats, I have my support systems, I have kind of the places where I am real with the challenges of this. 10:48 But to the world, to a journalist who's going to tell the world, I don't wanna make that my first foot forward or any foot forward." Right. 10:56 And so I've seen over the years people really rebrand kind of everything from their venture firms to, like, their personal brand to not just be focused on them being Brown or them being women, and I, I feel the same way. 11:08 Mm-hmm. I, I think it's something I connect with other Brown women and Brown people about. Yeah. But it's not the thing that I'm like, "You should know me for this." 11:15 Right, like, let's talk about my accomplishments, how much money I raised, what I'm building, not, like, what it is for me to be a woman in tech, why is it hard for me as a woman to, like, raise venture and things like that. 11:23 Exactly, and it, it, it bums me out, because I think that, like, the media at times can reinforce these stereotypes. 11:28 And so as part of the media, like, you ask how that impacts, how being kind of, like, a woman in tech impacts my job and me, and I think I'm, like, super aware of being, like, of being someone who has the power, for lack of better phrasing, to continue to perpetuate these stereotypes. 11:45 Yeah. And so I've tried to be really careful of, first of all, never asking really a female founder what it's like to be a female founder. 11:52 Um, but, but more than anything, making sure I'm, I'm being really thoughtful with my questions- Right... 11:57 so it's not the crux of the interview, and so, you know, you don't get, like, a, a f- you don't, you don't get, like, an anecdote where, like, someone's, like, stomping their heels out of the room as, like, the only way you meet this founder. 12:08 Right. Right. And, and that's your superpower. As a woman, you can not ask those questions. [laughs] Exactly. Exactly. I mean, and, and that is, like, a very positive- Yeah... 12:16 I think that's a very pos- that's a huge positive, because I remember joining and being, like, really bummed that, like, there were these, you know-... 12:24 dudes in tech reporting that, like, definitely had better access than I did, and I was like, "I don't know if I'm ever gonna be invited to golf with these guys." Mm-hmm. Like, am I never gonna get these stories? Right. 12:33 Right. But now, four years in, like, I wish I could have told myself that, like, you're gonna get a different source base. Mm-hmm. 12:38 A source base that would never call someone to golf, and that in and of itself is, like, a huge value that you now have that, that the journalism world may have not had in the same way. Right. So just remembering that. 12:49 I'm sure across all fields, for people who are listening, that you are, like, your only competi- you are your competitive advantage, so, like- Yeah... kind of run with that. Yeah. 12:57 I mean, those on playing golf are not finding the stories that you're finding. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I think that it's, like, super hard to remember, 'cause of course you wanna break the flashy news. 13:07 Um, and I still, but I, but I think I can still do that. I can still break the big news without needing to be something I'm not or, or code switch too much. Yeah, totally. 13:15 Do, do you find that journalism is a very connection-based networking industry? Definitely. Yeah. I mean, it's all, it's all sources. Mm-hmm. It's all your network. 13:24 Um, and I've been really trying to harness this idea of increasing my surface area for luck and, and, and stories and just collaboration. 13:33 I think COVID was super hard for that, and it almost made me feel like the way to do journalism is online first. 13:40 But recently, I've been changing that up, and it's been really nice to just, like, physically enter situations where you're gonna meet a ton of people like this. Yes. 13:47 Um, and you never know, you know, how things can work out- Mm-hmm... or shake out, you know, down the road. Mm-hmm. 13:52 And it's such obvious advice, but I just, I don't know, I feel like really recently I've been trying to lean- Yeah... into just increasing surface area. Yeah. 13:59 I mean, it's, maybe it's obvious advice, but it's very hard to do in practice. Yeah. What are, like, tactical advice you have for people trying to increase their surface area for luck? 14:08 And it's not just in journalism, right? It's, like, whether you're looking for a job- 100%... or you're trying to raise money, like, that is, you need to do that regardless. 100%. 14:15 I think the, you know, one, one mindset I'm trying to keep doing, like, you can do this every day if you wanted. You could end your day, every day doing this. Get your college, high school mindset back. 14:27 Are most of your listeners out, out of college? Uh, they're, like, getting their first, second jobs. Okay. Like, things like that. Yeah. So, so you remember who you were when you were- Yeah... 14:34 looking for your first internship. Mm-hmm. And when you had that.edu email and you were mass emailing every single, in my case, massive publication. 14:43 I mean, I literally pitched The New Yorker at, like, 20 years old with no reason to have written for The New Yorker. 14:50 [laughs] Of course they didn't respond, but I feel like I try and remember to myself that sometimes we take ourselves out of the running before we even try. 14:57 And so I try and, like, harness, like, the, my intern complex a little bit- Yeah... and just, like, every day try and reach out to a few new people for nothing other than, like, a quick hello. 15:06 It can be a 15-minute conversation. People love to talk about themselves. 15:10 But more than anything, I think everyone kind of knows that their industry's run on knowing each other, and I can, every single job and opportunity I've ever gotten has been through- Yes... 15:19 a light, wanna just catch up for a drink or coffee meeting. Yes. 15:23 And so, you know, I don't, I don't know how much proof you need to have in order to do it, but I can promise that, uh, you know, even a five-minute cold call or even having your name show up in someone's inbox can help so much. 15:33 And it's something you can do every day, which is just free, too. It's, uh, that's the best thing. Yes. Oh my God, I'm such a huge proponent of networking. Networking is everything. Yeah. 15:40 Like, especially with things like AI, just, like, totally booming, things like job boards and, like, more online places where you, like, drop your resume or, like, apply, it's going to be very difficult for someone who's going to sift through all these applications when they're, they're only getting more and more applications with all these automations. 15:56 Right. Like, it's, the way you're gonna get the job, the way you're gonna get connected to that customer, land that investor is going to be- Yeah... from that warm intro. 16:02 So it's gonna come from, like, years of relationship building, and people are not gonna realize, like, "Oh, what was that one moment where I talked to this person at this event," or like, "I had this cold email," that a year later, it's now panning out into this big opportunity. 16:13 Yeah. It's the long game. And I think warm intros- Mm-hmm... are such a, you know, I think rightfully debated topic in Silicon Valley. Yeah. Whether you need one in order to be successful. 16:23 And I'll say, like, I've had so much luck from cold intros too. Like, I really do think just emailing and not overthinking that initial- Mm-hmm... um, note that you sent to someone. Mm-hmm. 16:32 Or even, like, LinkedIn messaging. I just feel like those are the things that- Yeah... 16:36 a lot of people overthink, like, including me, and I don't do, I act, I didn't do it for, like, a year because I was kind of like, "I'm fine. My existing network's fine." Mm-hmm. 16:45 Don't take your existing network for granted first, and then second, just, like, constantly try and refresh a little bit. Mm-hmm. 16:50 And it won't be as daunting, and so then when you are looking for the new job, you're not starting from scratch. 16:54 Um, and of course, like, I try and enter each of these conversations super curious, not saying, you know, you don't wanna do a bait and switch where you're like, "Well," you know, at the end of the call being like, "So now I'm gonna apply for a job." 17:05 You wanna be super honest. 17:06 But I think, you know, even if you're not looking for a job right now, even if you're just, like, kind of like, "Oh, I think this person shipped a really cool product recently," or, "She wrote a really great- Yeah... 17:15 story recently," just I can't imagine someone saying no to a 10-minute phone call. Yeah. I mean, you don't have to reach out to someone just because you want something. Yes. It can totally be, like, an exchange of value. 17:24 Like, I have something that's interesting for you or I just, like, love what you're doing, period. And then you never know where that'll go. That's so true. Yeah. I also love that you called it the intern complex. 17:32 [laughs] Because that's actually so real. It's like when we're interns, we're like, "Well, we have nothing to lose because we know nobody and we know nothing." Yes. "So might as well." 17:39 Like, we're so unafraid to be embarrassed- Yes... because everything about what we're doing is embarrassing anyways in our careers. Yes. And then when we get older, we, like, constrain ourselves. 17:47 We're like, "Oh, we have our reputation," and, "Oh, like- 100%... people should reach out to us," or, like, egos and stuff like that, and it doesn't make sense. 17:52 We should, like, forever imbibe this intern complex, complex. It's, like, one of the best advices I've ever heard. Oh my God. So thank you for saying that. I'm so glad. 17:59 No, I mean, I feel like, and I, it's like it's a double-edged sword. 18:02 Like, I mean, I w- I s- I'll say, like, the other positive of the intern complex is, like, you do end up getting into more rooms when people are not thinking that you're out there just for a very specific purpose. 18:12 Like- Yeah... by b- like, I f- I alw- all the time I just, I remind people I'm trying to network with that I wanna be a journalist for my whole life and that I, you know, don't view this job as, like, a stint. 18:23 And I think the moment I tell people that I'm committed but I'm excited and curious and I'm just here to learn, not get kind of, not break news about your specific company right now, people open up, and it's helped me break a ton of news down the road. 18:36 I will say, like, the negative of the intern complex, and something I'm working on right now, is making sure you don't undersell yourself when you are smart and when you are- Yeah... 18:43 kind of, I mean, of course interns are smart, but it's like when you do have the knowledge, don't hide that you have it. Mm-hmm. 18:49 I think you can be honest and, and, and curious.But also be educated and kind of not let even, not let, you know, an investor tell you what a seed round is or how startups work. Right. 19:01 Like, I s- I find myself having to correct people a lot, too. Yeah. And that's an uncomfortable dance, but it do- it's better than just not having it to begin with. 19:08 Yeah, I mean, and okay, if you're wrong, worst case you can just be humble and be like, "Okay, my bad," right? Yeah. And like no one's gonna remember it. No one's gonna think about it. 19:14 Like, the worst is that you, like you said, don't say something you actually do know that could be valuable for other people. Yeah. Be a little shameless with it. Like, I feel like a lot of times, like I... 19:23 I mean, I'm, I'm saying advice that I myself am currently working on. [laughs] So I'm not even saying this in a way that like I can prove that this works. 19:29 But I think sometimes I just like kind of dance around saying what I actually want in a meeting. Mm-hmm. 19:33 And then, you know, I'll see my coworker do it, and they'll just be like, "Hey, like, actually you mentioned something the other day at a party. Can I actually write a story about that?" 19:41 And people will be like, "Sure, whatever." Mm-hmm. 19:43 Um, and I think that oftentimes like it's almost like you assume that someone doesn't want to help or tell you something, but they, they, they, they may not mind as much as you. Mm-hmm. 19:51 And yeah, the worst thing that they'll say is no. Um, the worst thing that they'll say is k- they'll kind of be awkward about it, but I've never had it blow up in like a how dare you. 19:59 Like, they know what you are and who you are. Yeah. So no one's surprised when a reporter wants to report. [laughs] Or when a designer wants you to look over something. Yeah. Like, that's part of your job description. 20:09 Don't feel like you have to kind of pretend like you don't care. Yeah, totally. I wanna, I wanna circle back to what you said, which is you wanna do journalism forever. Yeah. 20:17 And like I cannot relate to this at all, because I feel like every like three years I'm like, "I want a fully different career." 20:23 [laughs] Like, I don't know what it is, and I, I do think that a lot of people are currently experiencing the monotony of doing the same thing every day. Yeah. 20:30 And wanna constantly be switching up and, like, finding ways to do that. So like what is the secret for waking up every day and loving your job- Oh my God... and, like, sticking with it? 20:38 Because if you really stick to something, you can become exceptional in it, but if you're constantly hopping around, and like this has been a problem that I've been experiencing is I hop around too much- Yeah... 20:48 it's hard for me to become an expert and actually be exceptional at anything. I think it's so different industry to industry. Like, I hear you. 20:54 I, I, I definitely think it feels like if you commit to one career- Mm-hmm... you will be, you will be exceptional at it. But there are so many ways to do that career that it's... 21:03 I, like, I see myself being a reporter in so many different ways. I think I just finished up a very entrepreneurial chapter of my journalism career for now. Like, it was... 21:12 At TechCrunch I was doing a podcast, a newsletter, event planning, event, event moderating, writing stories every day. Wow. I was doing so many different buckets. 21:21 And, and that was, I would say, like, this like kind of entrepreneurialist journalist. 21:26 Now I would be more of like an investigative scoop and news oriented journalist, where I would be spending instead of 90% of my time kind of writing and creating at TC, I'm doing 90% of my time sourcing and networking. 21:37 Mm-hmm. 21:37 And so kind of l- letting yourself find the different channels within your career that you've committed to, that to me helps break it up a lot, 'cause you almost are like constantly trying to prove to yourself and figure out... 21:49 You know, the debate with, with journalists is like what percent reporter are you and what percent writer are you? 21:54 And I think there's always this tension of like do I wanna fine-tune my writing skills or fine-tune my reporting skills? Mm-hmm. 21:59 And when I kind of view it that way, then to me I feel like I have this whole option for the rest of my career. I can just be an editor for a bit. I can be a columnist for a bit. 22:08 I could just kind of do a podcast for a bit. Right. And so it's very broad careers. I feel like in your world, um, it can be a little bit more difficult- Yeah... to, to, to stick to one thing because- Mm-hmm... 22:20 I mean, tech, tech in general, it just is like you're so incentivized to jump around, too. Yeah, yeah. No, actually, it's true. 22:25 It's like less of like this one job that you're siloing yourself into, and you're more like siloing yourself into an industry 'cause you're passionate about this industry. Yeah. 22:33 And I think maybe it's just reframing it as a, in a way that I have been in tech my entire life. So in a way I have found the place that I wanna stick. Yeah. 22:41 And whether I'm an engineer or a product manager, and I guess now I'm a founder, right? 22:44 It's still within kind of like an aligned scope of like, oh, I like care about technology, and I care about, like, uplifting other people in tech. Yes. And it's like related. 22:53 So maybe it's like actually a framing issue- Yeah... and how I frame it to myself, and remind myself that, oh, I'm still growing in this like similar path in the same area, and it's not- Right... 23:01 like skipping around, hopping around. Totally. I'll, I'll say something that like really helped me. Mm-hmm. I talked to an editor when I was 23:07 on the job search, and I was like, "Oh my gosh, like, what if like, like I kind of..." It's, it's... His, his big advice was, like, I think we often over-index- Mm... on what our career moves mean. Yeah. 23:19 So to someone in college looking to go to a startup or Google, they might think that choosing a startup is gonna completely change the way that their career looks versus Google. 23:29 And sure, in a lot of ways, like, that will imp- Like, each of your jobs changes your life. It should change your life. Mm-hmm. 23:34 But going, as long as you kind of see your own thread through it, I think it's always able to be marketed during job interviews. Mm-hmm. 23:41 At Google you can say that you, you know, you can say that you got experience at big tech, and now you're ready to focus on s- on a smaller startup and bring those scaling experience to a smaller company. 23:51 At a smaller company you can say that you learned how to manage, and now at a bigger company you can't wait to scale that up. 23:57 And so I think oftentimes we're kind of like, I just need everything to kind of be this perfect g- ladder. Mm-hmm. And it doesn't work that way. And a lot of times, like, you shouldn't even tell your... 24:07 You don't need to tell people that, "It doesn't make sense that I'm doing all these things. I'm not jumping around." Mm-hmm. I think there's always kind of this thread- Right... 24:13 that you can find, and it's literally just marketing yourself. Yeah. [laughs] Wait, that's so true, 'cause everyone's always like, "Oh, like do I start at a startup?" Yes. "Or is my first job doing big tech?" 24:20 It's like there's this some secret answer. And it's like there is no secret answer. No. They're just so different. They're different types of experience, and at the end of the day it's just your story. 24:29 And h- your jo- job interview and the job you're gonna get is just simply how you show up at that interview and tell your story. Yes. A- and honestly, like, I'm, I'm 26 years old. It's not super... 24:40 I don't want to, but I, I have, I keep reminding myself and my friend group, we're, we're always like it's, we're so early in our career right now that we could start from scratch- Mm-hmm... 24:47 on a new career right now and still be super successful at that. Um, and whether like my next... Like, you know, if I was like let me choose and go... 24:55 You know, I, a lot of times we see journalists go the comms route or the venture capital route, in tech at least. And I think if you, if you look at their stories, like people weave in and out of industries so often. 25:05 Um, and I wonder where the sort of pressure is to kind of be this person- Mm-hmm... that always has, is always, you know, in journalism, always going to a bigger pub or always going to a more ambitious beat. 25:16 I don't think that's the way it works, and I kind of wish I knew that in college so I didn't overthink my internships so much. But so be it. [laughs] Yeah. Wait, you're... I'm also 26. Oh my gosh. We're so young. 25:26 Yeah, we're so young. You're right. We have literally, we can reinvent ourself 10 times if we want. We can have 10 different careers- Right... and still make it somewhere. Right. 25:33 And I mean, like, on the point of being 26, like I do think it's such an advantage to be-... younger in this industry, I feel like I'm playing, I'm learning as a lot of people are playing or re- or relearning. Mm-hmm. 25:45 Like, I'm learning for the first time what tech looks like in the wake of COVID. Mm. While other people are still trying to shake off, like, you know, what they remember from the last downturn. 25:55 And to be new and have a fresh perspective, and, you know, flip over stones that other people just don't think are even interesting, I think is so helpful- Mm-hmm... in our career. So I'm kind of... 26:04 Like, I don't know, I feel like it's been, like, a really crazy four years where I've gotten to see a boom cycle, I've gotten to see COVID, I've gotten to see a downturn, and then I've seen AI, crypto- [laughs]... 26:14 you know, all these things. Yeah. And it's just, like, I don't know, this feels like the four-year period that's, like- Right... 26:19 the kinda four-year period that we're gonna talk about when we're, like, 50 years old and be like- Oh, yeah... "This, you know, taught me and my mindset on tech." So just be super open to that. Yeah. 26:27 Oh, my God, that's such great advice. Um, so you've been a reporter, and you've also done events. Yeah. And you've also had a podcast. So you've done so many things. 26:37 [laughs] At some point along this journey, doing these things, it was new to you. How did you, like, jump into it and learn how to do it? Ooh, oh, my gosh. It, it was a very hard process, um, confidence-wise, mostly. 26:49 I... Literally, my first time I was on my, my old podcast, I, like, finished recording. I, like, went... 26:55 I was like, "I need to go to the library right now and, like, check out books on, like, history so I sound smarter." And it was, like, the most, like, juvenile response to not feeling smart. 27:04 [laughs] And I actually had a heart-to-heart with my partner. I was like, "Listen, like, I just feel like I have nothing to contribute to this podcast about tech. It's... 27:10 It was with two people who have a decade of experience on me. Um, I'm gonna just sound like the person who's uneducated." 27:17 And he was like, "I feel like you need to just think of it as, like, for you, what you think is a no-brainer, what you think is so obvious about the way the tech world works or what that founder mentioned to you on how building an edtech company looks in 2022, um, you think it's all obvious. 27:34 I don't think listeners do. 27:35 And so consistently try and, like, advocate for the listener, um, and just ask the, ask, you know, for lack of better phrasing, the stupid questions that a lot of people who are so deep in their beats forget to ask sometimes." 27:48 I found that to be the best way to on-ramp into the podcasting world. Of course, then I have the issue now of being, like, too technical. [laughs] And now I need to, like, generalize more. Yeah. 27:55 But it really helped for me to just remember that a lot of the best podcasters, speakers, moderators at events are asking the simple questions. They're not trying to, like, create an insane question tension all the time. 28:07 They're trying to be casual and conversational about it. Mm-hmm. And, like, take small bites. Mm-hmm. And so instead of, like, starting off with, like, the hardest question for a company like- Mm-hmm... 28:16 Clubhouse, for example. When I interviewed the Clubhouse CEO, I wasn't like, "Hey, what happened?" I was like, "Hey, you've done this before, right? 28:23 Like, what did you learn from your last company that helped you when Clubhouse started blowing up?" Right. And then build up towards the harder questions. Um, that was super helpful. 28:32 And then real quick, I'll say my other big tip, before I forget, 28:36 is before every podcast I record, um, when I was doing it on a weekly basis, I would create a separate Google Doc where I would just write, like, seven hot takes on each of the topics we were talking about. 28:46 So no matter what, I knew I had kind of a backup perspective in case I got, like, camera shy. I never needed it. Mm-hmm. But it was always kind of... It's, it... 28:54 Overprepare in the beginning, and you'll feel a lot more- Yeah... smart. 28:57 And, like, you know, you'll be surprised when you start listening to podcasts how much people say that is really simple, but they just say it in an engaging way. Right. 29:04 And then you're just like, "Oh, that makes sense because someone else told me it." Right. So take the pressure off of yourself, too. Right. 29:09 Yeah, I mean, advocate for the listener 'cause the listener's probably someone who's, like, inexperienced. Yeah. And that's why they're listening to the podcast, 'cause they- Right... want to get better educated. 29:16 They want more of that insight. So that's, uh, that is great advice. They wanna feel heard also. Yeah. Like, there's... I, I think, like, the best compliment a writer can get is, like, feeling heard. Mm-hmm. 29:24 Or yeah, is, like, "You made me feel heard with this story. Like, I knew this was happening in tech, but you're the first reporter that put it, put it to words." Mm-hmm. 29:31 And so, yeah, when you're on-ramping into, like, all these different... 29:34 If you're trying to do more content out loud, just, like, remember that there's someone out there that's probably thought about this exact same thing that you thought about but maybe has two or three or 10 years less experience than you. 29:44 Mm-hmm. And, like, how thankful they'll be for even a few notes about it. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. What was the most, like, impactful story that you've covered? 29:52 Ooh, I'm gonna kind of do a cop-out, but I feel like I am really proud of my coverage of layoffs during the tech cycle. 30:01 I think not because it was necessarily, like, you know, these scoops, but it was more, like, I learned how to talk to people who had been joining companies, believing in a mission, and then feeling like that mission was changed or tweaked or, you know, got- Mm... 30:14 venture capital backed and completely changed. And I feel like I really learned how the industry works- Mm-hmm... 30:19 during that, during the, the big layoff spree that happened at the end of last year, and I guess still into this year. Mm-hmm. 30:26 So I'm, I'm really proud of, like, how I handled those conversations in a way that I think really 30:31 ex- hopefully explains to readers that layoffs a- in tech, um, can, can show so much more about a company and what happens when venture capital joins a startup. Mm-hmm. It completely changes the way it works. Mm-hmm. 30:43 It's built, et cetera, et cetera. Mm-hmm. So I'm really proud of, of covering those thoughtfully. Yeah. 30:47 I mean, you have such an inside scoop on startups being built from zero to one, especially as you've spent some time with the founders. 30:53 Do you think, like, not saying that you're gonna do this, but, like- [laughs] Do you feel like you have the information and knowledge now to, like, just go and build your own company? Oh, my gosh. 31:00 I always tell founders I would never do it. [laughs] I always... Like, I start off every interview- You're like, "I know way too much about all the bad things here." 31:06 [laughs] No, honestly, I feel like I always start off every interview, interview by being like, "So why the heck did you do this?" [laughs] Because there are so many other ways to spend your time. 31:13 Why did you torture yourself? Yeah. [laughs] Why are you betting your legacy on something that's 80% gonna fail? And I don't say it in a cynical way. Yeah. I say it in a really res- I respect the heck out of you way. 31:23 Yeah. It's insane. It's just data. Yeah. Yeah. And it's an insane thing to choose for yourself, and I am so in awe of it because I think I don't have that itch in me. 31:31 You know, the journalist equivalent of starting a company could be starting a Substack or, yeah, going out on my own and trying to just write on a, yeah, create my own publication. 31:41 Um, and, like, the editor of my publication has done that, and I respect that so much, and I think it takes a different kind of person and drive, and I feel like I just, at this phase at least, don't see it. Mm-hmm. 31:50 Um, of course, I am so happy when I have friends do it. Yeah. 'Cause I'm just like, "This is so exciting to get to talk to you about what's actually happening." [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. 31:59 I mean, as a founder myself, like, it's, it's really, really hard, and I think, like, doing it knowing that-At the end of the journey, whether you succeed or fail- Yeah... it is worth it, is actually the only way. 32:13 Yeah, that's a really good way to put it. Yeah. One of my friends, uh, here, he- he was like my first actual friend first, then a founder, and he was like, "There's only three ways that this company's gonna go. 32:22 It's gonna fail, it's gonna get acquired, or it's gonna go public. Like, those are only the three options." And I think the way he said it, like so matter-of-factly- Mm-hmm... 32:30 made me be like, that clarity is probably really empowering to have. Yeah. Yeah. You're like, no matter what, I'm gonna know [laughs] It was worth it, or s- what was, what it was worth, at least. Yeah. Yeah. So true. 32:39 You, so you've taken your career from Crunchbase and Techcrunch, and now into Information. Yeah. And I'm sure I'm missing, like, other things in that list. 32:48 Can you walk us through, like, what that transition was like across these different companies, and like- Yeah... how your role transformed and, like, what you learned through that process? Yes. Yes. 32:58 Okay, well, yeah, I'll s- I think I'll s- do those three f- I did a bunch of internships leading up to that point, and I would say, like, just real quick- Mm-hmm... 33:04 the internship, uh, time period was used to very much, like, learn terminology of how tech works, literally, like, journalism, how to interview, AP style, stuff like that. 33:16 It was just, like, the place where I got, like, my education in journalism, even though I went to school for it. I [laughs] feel like the internships did the heavy lifting there. Mm-hmm. 33:24 Um, Crunchbase News was my first job out of college. I would say the journalist that I was then was I was trying to write about anything I could r- get my hands on. 33:34 So, um, my, one of my professors at BU, he was always like, "Your first 500 stories don't count. They are just ways to get word through your fingers so you get practice and learn how to s- do better storytelling." 33:47 And I feel like that is, was Crunchbase News for me. 33:49 Not that my stories don't count, but it was just the time where I was so focused on just writing as much as I can and interviewing as much as I can, and, and, and just kind of like asking the, the really basic questions. 34:00 Mm-hmm. Um, and so if I look back at those clips, like I'm like, ugh, my God, I, like, left so much on the table. Like, I didn't get the tension high up in the story. 34:07 I see so much room to grow, and I think you should feel that way about your first job. Yeah. And so, yes, maybe intern complex a little bit. I was a little bit, like, trying to feel it out. Mm-hmm. 34:15 After a year at Crunchbase News, I went to Techcrunch, um, where I've, you know, I spent most of my career, so I spent three and a half years there. 34:23 Um, that to me was really, like, the chapter in my career where I began to find my voice and my angle and what my superpower was, which was, I think, being, like, leading with ear- earnestness as like a way to report versus, you know, I'm not gonna be the reporter that, like, calls you up and is like, "You need to tell me this right now, or else I'm hitting publish." 34:42 Um, and so I feel like Cr- Techcrunch really gave me, like, the confidence, honestly, and the platform to go reach out to entrepreneurs on a daily basis. 34:51 Again, I was working on a lot of drafts and getting a lot of words through my fingers, but I was a lot, like, more, uh, I was getting a little, a lot more ambitious with my stories. 35:00 Um, and now, like kind of the transition to the Information, like I kind of hinted at before, at TC I was doing a bunch of things. 35:07 Now I feel like I'm in my heads down and building era, where I'm kind of focused on just learning how to break news that's important and influential and impactful in our, in our industry. 35:18 So some of the smaller stories that I wrote at Techcrunch, I probably wouldn't write here, only because I wanna kind of use them as kernels into writing a bigger story. Mm-hmm. And so taking more time. 35:26 I'm in, like, I'm, I'm really, like, I really do feel like my friend... I'm stealing this from my friend Anita, who it's, who she was kind of like, "You're kind of heads down building for a little bit. 35:33 We, it's, it's a phase that you kind of need in order to get that deep knowledge-" Yeah... instead of always yelling out to the public. So I'm tweeting less, but I'm learning a lot. Yeah. 35:42 I mean, you, you gotta heads down and build to build really great things. Yeah. So that is really good. It feels so good to not. 35:48 It feels really good to, like, especially in the content world, to like, sh- shout from the rooftops, like tweet 10X more, and constantly be, like, sharing your thoughts- Mm-hmm... and getting immediate feedback. 35:58 Like, I'd be lying if saying the transition hasn't been hard from doing that every day- Mm-hmm... to now doing that, you know, at, writing one story a week instead of like 10 stories a week. Mm-hmm. 36:08 But I'm, like, already seeing such a difference in the way I approach the job, and so I- Yeah... I, I, I needed, I needed that time at Techcrunch. 36:14 I think, I'm like so grateful for the investment that they put in me and the platform they gave me. Mm-hmm. Um, and so now I feel like, I feel like I have scratched that itch enough that I can take a break from it. 36:23 [laughs] Yeah. I cannot believe you did 10 stories a week- Oh, my God... at one point. Uh, there are people who've done, who do far more than, than me there still, so- I can't comprehend. 36:31 [laughs] It's a super, oh my God, it's a super ambitious and energetic workforce there. Mm-hmm. Um, they write so much, and I was kind of like, "What does it look like for me not to?" Yeah. And now I'm learning. Yeah. 36:40 And it's cool. It's, it's, it's, it's challenging, but it's cool. Yeah. Well, besides your extremely successful career- Oh, my God... you also have this massive Twitter following. 36:47 [laughs] Which we cannot say comes for free. Like, you must have worked at it to have built the thought leadership. How do you balance that, and how did you build that following? Oh, my gosh. I remember like... 36:57 It's so sad, because Twitter's not what it used to be, so it's, like, nice of you to say. I feel like I forget that I have a platform there sometimes these days. Yeah. Yeah. Which is- And a very powerful platform. 37:07 Like, it might, yes, I know Twitter's going through stuff- Yeah... but, like, tech, venture, like- Lives... startup, they live there. Like, and that is the- Yeah... 37:15 those are the stories you're talking about, so it's like 100 times more powerful than having an audience anywhere else for specifically what you're doing and what you're covering. 37:22 Yeah, it's like a thing that I'm not gonna break up with anytime soon, because- Yeah... it is where my people are living and existing and giving their hot takes. Yeah. 37:29 Um, so in terms of building it, I mean, I started that Twitter when I was in college, um, and I just really focused on ignoring some advice that I had gotten, which was someone literally took me for coffee like my first month in SF and was like, "You should not tweet. 37:42 People are going to come at you 'cause you're a woman in journalism on the internet, and, like, just don't be too honest." Wait, no way you got that advice. It's wild to hear now that someone would ever say that. 37:53 I mean, and I, I'll be honest, I still get that advice. Yeah. And I, for, I think for- Oh, my God... I think for valid reason, right? Like, I think women in journalism, in tech journalism- Mm-hmm... 38:02 are targeted horribly on the internet. There are a lot of ways that your safety can be put in danger. 38:07 We see it with Taylor, Taylor Lorenz is a really, um, un- unfortunately important example of how a reporter can be targeted by so many different-People and entities and, and, and stuff like that. 38:19 And so I appreciate the advice, and I think the kernel of truth in there is don't be dumb with your Twitter. Don't say where you live. Don't tweet, like, everything about your life. Yeah. 38:28 But the advice that I got that I ignored was, like, don't be you on Twitter, only be Natasha the reporter. Mm. Uh, which is now my Instagram handle. [laughs] Um, 38:39 a- a- and I, I think, like, by straddling the line of being both a reporter that shares my stories, but also someone who people know loves to run and loves to cook, it helped me, again, lead with what I think is my journalistic superpower, which is being a, a very, like, accessible journalist and being someone that people don't think is, like... 38:56 S- you know, there's a lot of trust we need to rebuild. And so I think by being myself online- Mm-hmm... I was able to grow a following because people were like, "Oh, she's, like, actually real." Mm-hmm. 39:04 "She's not just jumping in here to say, like-" Mm-hmm... "Here's a company that's having layoffs." Mm-hmm. Yeah. 39:08 I mean, it takes incredible amount of intuition foresight to be in college and then recognize the power of having a platform, and then in consistently investing that time over several years- Yeah... um, to build that. 39:19 Like, I tell a lot of young people, specifically those that are in college, I was like, "Start your thought leadership now. Start creating, like- Yeah... a c- a c- a, a platform. 39:28 Like, p- it doesn't have to be Twitter, right? It can be TikTok. It can be Instagram. Like, pick a platform that you resonate with. Start sharing what you think about and building your personal brand. 39:34 And it's like you have no idea how impactful that's gonna be in the future. And that is, like, the number one biggest mistake. I, like, just started this- Yeah... 39:41 a few months ago, is actually, like, building a personal brand. Like- Oh my God... I cannot believe I just didn't- You're already killing it. 39:45 It's just that- Well, I just, like, I feel like it was so many years of, like- Yeah... time that I lost in growing and building that platform that could be so valuable one day. But, you know, n- never say never. Yes. 39:54 And especially- Like, it'd be better now... right. Yeah. I completely agree. I, I really do think so many people... 39:58 I don't know if this was, uh, y- why you didn't, but I think a lot of people who ask me for advice on how to build a Twitter- Yeah... following don't tweet because they don't think they have something important to say. 40:06 Mm-hmm. Um, or they don't get on the mic 'cause they don't think they, think they have something important to say. And I'm like, "Okay, you don't have to always say something insanely insightful." 40:13 One of my biggest growth hacks when I was first starting- Mm-hmm... was just tweeting, "Who do I need to know who invests in early stage companies?" And I would get like 300 responses on my Twitter. 40:23 People, I was signaling to the world that I cared, and I got a ton of followers and, and, and, and a b- better network because of it. And I, I do think being a journalist helps, obviously. 40:33 Like, I think founders are in a very saturated market. Journalists are in different ways. Mm-hmm. I think the moment you start, to your point, is like- Mm-hmm... y- it's, it's a really good idea to just start. Yeah. 40:41 No, I, I just want, like, m- more every person who cares about their career to, like, invest in their personal brand. Like- Yeah... 40:48 doesn't matter who you are, doesn't matter what industry, anything, it's im- it's important period. And figure out what's natural for you. Yeah. Like, for me- Yeah... TikTok is not natural at all. Um- Yeah... 40:57 writing to me is, obviously as a reporter, the most natural way. Yeah. And so I always, like, tweet without thinking. Like, I think if I was overthinking each of my tweets- Yeah... I wouldn't have a platform. Yeah. 41:06 So if- Yeah... you're finding yourself more natural on Instagram- Mm-hmm... or I guess Threads now or any of these things, lean into that. Don't, like, ignore that gut instinct. 41:15 Even if, I, I agree, like, tech Twitter is massive, but if you are awkward on tech Twitter or if you feel like you don't ever have a thought that you wanna tweet, see what you find if you become a tech, 41:26 a, a t- a tech creator on TikTok. You might- Yeah... find a entirely different group- Yeah... that, you know, again, is a lot less saturated than tech Twitter. So I don't think- Yeah... 41:33 I think there are a lot of different ways to be successful here. So true. I found that TikTok was just better for me because- That's awesome... 41:39 I'm just, like, better at showing up on camera and, like, using my, like, body language and stuff to express my thoughts. Right. But, like, that doesn't necessarily mean, like, I couldn't have been successful on Twitter. 41:48 I just, like, found that as something that was, like, more authentic to me. Yeah. But I think the other thing you said was, like, everyone has something to talk about. 41:54 Like, some people, like, grow, build and grow their audience through, like, stuff they know and education, but you could also just post, like, relatable content of like, "I did this today," and everyone can resonate with that. 42:05 Yeah. Because no one else is talking about that- 100%... the thing that you did. You can post what you did. You can ask questions. Mm-hmm. You can... 42:11 I always say, like, the best way to get in contact with a journalist or to connect with other people is just respond to their tweets. Like, you don't need to be the person that people are following. 42:20 Like, don't enter a... Don't enter trying to create your platform by trying to get followers. Enter it by trying to learn. Mm-hmm. And I think the followers will come. 42:27 Like, I don't think I did anything special to get a bigger following on Twitter. I think all I did was my job and ask questions- Mm-hmm... which is also my job. Mm-hmm. 42:36 So it was n- it was no, like, secret or special thing. Yeah. Like, I, I do think obviously if you're, if you don't act like a human online and you just kind of tweet thought leadership very vaguely, people are not... 42:44 There's so much of that now- Yeah... that, like, there's ways to kind of show that you are more than just your job title, and you should do that- Totally... i- in a weird way, to help your job. [laughs] Totally. Yeah. 42:54 I mean, like, consistency- Yes... is, like, the key, and you get better by doing things every day, and that's not a light thing. Like, showing up to something every day is actually, like, hard task. Yeah. 43:05 [laughs] Like, we, I think we take for granted sh- the years that we've shown up, and we will say, "Oh, like, we didn't do anything special," but that is special. Yeah. That's a good point. I, I- Yeah... it, it was... 43:17 You're right. Like, I think going, starting it in college and, like, taking it seriously and, like, letting myself be- Mm-hmm... someone who prioritized it. I mean, I'll be... 43:25 Like, I, it was the f- one of the first pieces of advice I gotted, I got when I started at Crunchbase News. 43:30 My editor, Alex Wilhelm, who then became my coworker at TechCrunch, um, he was like, "Tweet 10 times more than you think. 43:36 Like, you may not have anything to say or think that you have anything to say, but just tweet more and see what happens." Mm-hmm. And it was, like, the best piece of advice. And I just- Yeah... 43:44 I, if, if I had not listened to that, I would've constantly been in this loop of just overthinking things. Mm-hmm. Um, and so yeah, showing up consistently and, and not taking yourself too seriously- Mm-hmm... 43:53 I think helps a ton. Mm-hmm. What are your thoughts on platform risk and only building an audience on one platform? 43:59 I know a lot of people talk about that it's important to build your personal brand on multiple social media because of that. Yeah. 44:07 I mean, it's a good time to be asking this question because there are so many Twitter alternatives popping up, and I'm on all of them, uh, because I don't know how to handle [laughs] platform risk. 44:15 It's, like, a really scary thing where I feel like I've built this following that is super helpful when I'm trying to break news or elevate my news. 44:24 But w-Now I'm starting to question it more loudly on what happens if I can't use it or it's not giving me the same benefit that, that it used to. Mm-hmm. 44:32 Um, what I will say, in the world of journalism at least, what's most important to me is the email addresses of the people that I, that follow my writing. 44:42 Like, I feel like Twitter probably represents, like, the people who read me that, like, are like, "Yeah, sure, I'll follow her." 44:48 Email addresses represent the people who are like, "Whenever Natasha posts a story, I want to click it, read it, and maybe even respond to it." 44:55 And so I think email represents this, like, insane commitment you have from someone on the other end of your platform, and I've started focusing more on getting email addresses instead of followers across these different platforms. 45:05 Mm-hmm. 45:05 I, I need to be better at it, I'll be honest, but it's why I feel like my only answer to platform risk is really through s- giving people a place to subscribe to me through their kind of email which will stay forever. 45:15 And so Substack, it has been really useful. And just, like, I mean, I haven't done anything with it yet, but when I joined The Information, I literally just said, "Hi, you know, follow me on Substack. 45:25 Um, I'll post my stories there sometimes." 45:27 Um, and I got, like, hundreds of people who just subscribed, and now I just feel at least that I have a group of people who worst case scenario, um, if Twitter disappears tomorrow, I have a starting lineup. Mm-hmm. 45:37 And you should always have a starting lineup- Mm-hmm... with, with your platform. Yeah. No, email makes sense, right? It's, like, the only thing that we have full ownership of. Yes. 45:45 Um, and so getting people's email feels really powerful. How do you, like, compel people when you make content to go to sign up for that in your link in bio? I imagine is where it is. Yeah. I, it's hard. 45:56 I mean, I, I, I think that is the challenge, right? Like, I think I probably have, like, less than 1,000 subscribers on my professional Substack, and I have around 47,000 sub- tw- uh, Twitter followers. 46:06 And so clearly the tran- the transition or conversion rate there is extremely low. Um, obviously, like I said, it's like extreme signal for those who did subscribe, and I'm super thankful for that. 46:17 But I feel like I have to keep reminding people that, like, I'm on all these platforms. Like, we all know that there's platform risk now. 46:24 And because the conversation is so loud right now, I feel less pressure to explain why it's important, which is great. I think people are just down to follow- Mm-hmm... and see. 46:31 And of course, I will, like, try and link it when I can. Mm-hmm. 46:34 Um, and I mean, for the other platforms, for Instagram and Threads and Blue Sky and T2 and all these apps, like, I try and have the same handle so people look for me no matter what. 46:44 Um, it's, it's a work in progress, to say the least. [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. It, I mean, with email it's kinda like inviting someone to your bedroom versus, like- Yes... seeing them at a party. 46:52 It's so intimate and personal. Like, you can't expect everyone to, who follows you, to subscribe, and that makes sense. And it, and maybe it should, it should be like that, right? 46:59 You can be more thoughtful and have more quality with that content. Right. 47:03 I think a lot of, like, like, and it, it goes back to even, like, how, how I work, where it's like it feels really good to get immediate feedback on your stories or when you send a funny tweet, but I don't know if that's, like, my job right now in this chapter. 47:16 Like, I think my job right now is probably to get smarter on the industry. Mm-hmm. And so I have in some ways appreciated the break from being so hyper-focused on tweeting every day. 47:24 Like, I used to live on Twitter, I feel like, and kind of go through this thought exercise where I would, like, wake up every day, open Twitter, read what people were saying, and then be like, "That's what I should write about." 47:34 And by taking Twitter a little bit out of the equation, I am feeling less dictated by what Tw- Tech Twitter thinks is important as a story idea. Mm. 47:42 And so, like, reminding yourself that, like, platform's important and, like, people who follow you are important, but it also can't be the only way in which you interact with the world, has been really helpful for me recently. 47:52 Yeah. There, there's a certain type of persona who spends all their time on Tech Twitter, and so you can start to get, like, more of a biased perspective with storytelling- Yeah... 47:59 if you, like, only funnel your inspo from there. Yeah, it's like a red flag almost if you are, like, always on Twitter. And, like, yeah, you've, you kinda, you almost, like, elevate- That's funny. That's kinda true. 48:09 [laughs] Right? Like- Yeah. [laughs]... I, I, like, me being a walking red flag for a lot of time. [laughs] Like, I'm only recently starting to spend less time. And I think it's very much, like, how do I... 48:18 Yeah, I don't know. It's, it's kind of like how, how do I make sure Twitter is not the way that I'm thinking? Mm-hmm. It's, like, super influential- Mm-hmm... so be careful. Yeah. 48:24 And you're on other Twitter alternatives as well. Yeah. How do you keep up with that, or do you just, like, post the same content across? I do not keep up with it, sadly. 48:32 [laughs] Um, I'll say LinkedIn is, like, huge right now for publishing a lot of stories. 48:37 Like, I get so much engagement on LinkedIn only because, like, again, that's where a lot of, like, the professional community lives. 48:43 And so being super aware of that, like, that is the thing that I'm, like, really hoping other journalists tell me what to do or figure it out before I do. 48:51 But the only platforms that I'm, like, religiously publishing to right now are Twitter, um, Instagram stories, and, um, LinkedIn. Mm-hmm. 48:58 I'll have moments where I'm like, "I should post on Threads," or, "I should post on Blue Sky," but it's so not authentic, like I said, like, that I'm not even doing it right now. 49:08 I'm basically, my strategy, maybe it's the wrong one, is I'm betting that one of them is gonna be clear soon enough, and I'll just invest then. Mm-hmm. Um, having an account to me is enough right now. Mm-hmm. 49:17 I, I cannot fake and do eight platform- Yeah... eight platforms a day. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, people will say, "Oh, you wanna get in early, and that's how you can, like, grow really fast." 49:25 Um, but you really have to make a strong bet or your work can get wasted. Yeah. 49:29 So I like this idea that you have of, like, picking two or three that you commit to and do them well, and then allowing yourself that space and not having that pressure of, like, I have to be everywhere all at once. 49:39 Yeah. I mean, and it's, like, a laziness thing too. Like, it's very much like I just cannot every day think about this. Like, I- Mm... don't want to be- That's not lazy. 49:48 [laughs] You literally have this whole job that's- I know... like, takes so much of your time. Lazy as in, like, I'm- Yeah... like, I'm not gonna be, I'm not gonna be, like, maniacal about how I build my- Yeah... 49:56 platform. Yeah. Like, this is not the chapter where I'm gonna be thinking about that. Yeah. 49:59 Founders might have, you might have, you might have a different w- uh, p- perspective altogether because a lot of what you do is, like, you wanna be top of pe- top of people's mind. And I do too but in a different way. 50:08 Yeah. And so making sure you're, like, adjust the way you- Mm-hmm... spend your time online I think is really helpful. And- Mm-hmm... 50:13 I've just been en- I've been enjoying seeing what it looks like to have a day that's not about-... posting out loud. Mm-hmm. No, but I think you're, you're right. 50:21 Even as a founder, right, I've made the mistake of equally investing in every platform and then not really getting high returns on- Yes... 50:28 any of them, versus now I've recently transitioned to, like, focusing on platforms where I think majority of my audience spends their time and seeing much more higher output for the input that I put in. 50:38 So- That's the best feeling. Yeah. Yeah, totally. Okay, this is a question I ask all my guests. Yes. So if you could go back in time and tell your younger self some advice, what would you tell her? Ooh, uh. 50:50 Oh my God, should it be in a professional context, probably? No, any context. Okay. 50:54 This is something that, like, I, like, live by, but I feel like for all my life, for a lot of my life, I thought I was only getting opportunities 'cause I was lucky, and I thought that when I was in Boston, like, I can never leave Boston because I have this whole friend group. 51:07 When I, when I moved to SF, I was like, "Okay, I need to keep everyone." Like, I need to just kind of keep, like, crossing my fingers and hoping things will work out. 51:14 And I wish I told myself when I was younger that, like, I am the reason that I am happy, and I am the reason that I have great opportunities. It, it goes back to saying, like, I am my own competitive advantage. Mm-hmm. 51:23 Um, and it just, it took me so long to not feel like things were happening to me. They're happening, like, because of me- Yeah... and you should, like, totally remember that things are happening because of you. 51:32 You're, you don't happen to, on, on, on any of this stuff. I'm sure luck is part of things, but 51:38 my community, my, like, people, and, like, my job, and, like, my work so far is only a byproduct and something I get to keep no matter where I move, where I go, what I do. 51:48 And so kind of like take the pressure off of yourself- Mm-hmm... to feel like you need to find someone or something always. Like, you are already doing it. Yeah. Yeah. No, I, I couldn't have said that better. 51:57 You are truly... 51:59 Uh, people's perception of you is truly your perception of self, so it's very important to realize your worth and see your value and know that, like, things happening in your life are because of your hard work and not just happening to you out of, like, pure coincidence. 52:09 Yeah. 52:10 I re- I mean, I remember, like, for me, like, my move from Boston to San Francisco was super difficult 'cause I kind of had this, like, insanely amazing friend group, and I'd grown up on the East Coast my whole life. 52:18 And so I was like, "How am I gonna do this ever again?" And then when I got here and things were fine after a few months, after a year or so, 52:27 I feel like I was kind of like, "Oh my God, I was so stupid," and I almost didn't do it because I was scared. Mm-hmm. And so remembering that, like, the, the... 52:33 Like, because you bring yourself a lot of, like, the positivity in your life, you will always be what you can take with yourself, with you. 52:39 You will always be what you can take with you when you go from, like, jobs to locations to, like, even, like, the, the friend group you spend time with. Mm-hmm. 52:46 And so it just calms me down a lot to remember that, like, at least I'm not going anywhere, so I can, like, help myself be successful. Totally. Totally. Oh, that was, that was so beautifully said. 52:56 Well, thank you so much for being on here. [upbeat music]
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